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Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

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Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#341

Post by geebee »

nunya213 wrote: post #201
ConcernedCoder wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really the end game? Am I an outlier since I don't want to manage people, I just want to write code? I'm 50 and have been programming since age 13 and I've turned down offers to move into management, since my 1st love is actually building things. Is it really just expected that at some point we all give up what we love to do just to fit into some corporate culture?

Seems to be career suicide. You are turning down countless promotion opportunities and insane amounts of compensation. All so what, you can continue coding day to day? Seems absurd, code at home as your hobby if it means that much to you. As an individual contributor your value to any company is limited no matter your skill. At a certain point the company is going to ask, is your compensation worth the value you add?…

That's a fine thesis, though I do think that software is one of those areas where a maker can under some circumstances, potentially have a vastly more powerful impact on an organization than a manager.

Opportunities are fewer and the competition level is high, though. To really harness this, you probably have to either become a founder who writes an early version of a product (very difficult), or alternatively advance along one of the technical track ladders that exist in some big tech companies (they exist, but far fewer opportunities and intense competition). There's a chance you could pitch a breakthrough product, but many (not all!) organizations seem strangely hostile to this.

So I do agree with you that going into management does offer greater opportunity for promotion and increased compensation. I disagree your value as an individual contributor is necessarily limited though, since a technically talented developer with a strong business sense can produce unreal value, sky is the limit on that combination.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#342

Post by tluyben2 »

tabtab wrote: post #338
tluyben2 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be different in different regions and different markets. Here VCs definitely don't check (or care). I find that they are generally more interested in buzzword bingo on a more abstract level; AI, ML, Blockchain etc. That said, I'm not building a religion; if the latest tech is a business goal, then it will happen. And i'm also not sure if it's true that 'we' would be slower to learn these things; I keep on to…

Maybe you are CTO and I'm not because my brain is not fast enough to keep up. Yes, a lot of it is rehashes of old things, but I keep inter-confusing the old incarnations with the new ones when coding. You can't cross-confuse 2 things if you never met one of them. Plus, its hard to keep enthusiasm up for the 500th reinvention of the wheel. Maybe I'll reinvent stronger coffee; call it "Covfefe 2.0", or "Blockchain Covf…

Yeah I see what you mean: I have something like that; I get enthusiastic because I see people apparently solving things that annoy me. So I go and try them and find they made things worse, usually. Sometimes, however, it is really great and then we start using it.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#343

Post by tluyben2 »

busterarm wrote: post #339
tluyben2 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be different in different regions and different markets. Here VCs definitely don't check (or care). I find that they are generally more interested in buzzword bingo on a more abstract level; AI, ML, Blockchain etc. That said, I'm not building a religion; if the latest tech is a business goal, then it will happen. And i'm also not sure if it's true that 'we' would be slower to learn these things; I keep on to…

I think this depends on the difference of perspective between startup->fledgling-and-profitable company CTO and Fortune 500 CTO. I feel like in the case of the later, the priorities are much more in the order of 1) manage business risk wrt technology, and 2) manage organizational processes wrt technology. Tech is only the thing that gets you to the thing and the usefulness of anything new is either a) readily apparen…

I agree with that; the bigger the company the more business like the CTO is. I consulted the CTO of a large insurance company: he showed me (and told me) I never really want to become that. I like getting people to make great things that benefit the business; I make myself know about the business, budgets etc. I believe some companies are underestimating tech and what it can do, at any scale; I believe I add value to the bottomline there. Learning new tech is not for the direct benefit of the company/business but it is indirect; I need to know how to talk to people in my teams. When they talk about something new and ask ‘why not this’, I am not the manager that said ‘stfu and work on what we pay you for’; I like to discuss it and I cannot do that if I did not try it. If someone convinces me it is a good idea, then we can do a PoC. I could just ask someone else to do that research and, as companies grow that is inevitable, at this moment however, I think I am doing a good thing.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#344

Post by mistrial9 »

taurath wrote: post #314
eksemplar wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer hiring people in their 30ies. It’s the perfect mix of being old enough to be practical and patient and young enough to still be cheap. The cheap bit comes from being in the Danish public sector where seniority gives automatic pay increases that you can’t legally turn down, so there is that. I do wonder why people wouldn’t hire older programmers or engineers though. A lot of them are still extremely nerdy abo…

Couple points I’ve seen that can knock older (and not wiser) devs - * fixing the problems they had at their last company, inappropriately so to the point of over-engineering. Sometimes it’s not elegant, but hardened against the wrong things * insistence on older technologies and patternss that they’re familiar with even if not concise

maybe you mean 'patterns'

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#345

Post by chii »

cmcginty wrote: post #330
eksemplar wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer hiring people in their 30ies. It’s the perfect mix of being old enough to be practical and patient and young enough to still be cheap. The cheap bit comes from being in the Danish public sector where seniority gives automatic pay increases that you can’t legally turn down, so there is that. I do wonder why people wouldn’t hire older programmers or engineers though. A lot of them are still extremely nerdy abo…

>I prefer hiring people in their 30ies. >I’m not sure ageism is really a big problem though. I'm not sure you can put both those statements together without sounding uninformed.

Its only ageism when other people do it.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#346

Post by taurath »

mistrial9 wrote: post #344
taurath wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple points I’ve seen that can knock older (and not wiser) devs - * fixing the problems they had at their last company, inappropriately so to the point of over-engineering. Sometimes it’s not elegant, but hardened against the wrong things * insistence on older technologies and patternss that they’re familiar with even if not concise

maybe you mean 'patterns'

My pphones autocorrect might not be working correctly ;)

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#347

Post by geomark »

paulddraper wrote: post #270
astura wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GP said "older devs" but what they are talking about isn't age, they are talking about skills and experience level. Everything is discrimination - if you're seeking to hire a software engineer you're probably going to discriminate against people who don't know how to code, people with low IQs, people who can't get along with the team, etc. The question becomes, is the discrimination legal and/or ethical and based…

Once upon a time "discrimination" had positive connotations, e.g. "he has discriminating tastes". Somehow the word has been twisted to be almost exclusively negative. But show me an organization that doesn't discriminate, and I'll show you an organization of utter incompetence.

The word "judge" has become like that, too. "How dare you judge people" is a common rage. But having good judgement is critical for your very existence, that is, you must judge everything you come into contact with. Making good judgements can literally mean the difference between life and death. And making judgements about the people you engage with, i.e. judging them, can mean the difference between happiness and misery.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#348

Post by dlwdlw »

OhHeyItsE wrote: post #188

I always wonder where the myth that older developers are "slower" comes from. Dunno about you folks, but I get better and faster every year. And, for me, that productivity metric is probably approaching parabolic. You learn enough languages, frameworks, tools - all the fundamentals start to merge together. You can pick the next one up faster than you did the one you just put down. You understand how to design softwar…

I think the bias is against older people who are looking for jobs through the same channels as the younger people rather than having an established enough work history or a network that gives them an express lane.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#349

Post by jancsika »

paulddraper wrote: post #270
astura wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GP said "older devs" but what they are talking about isn't age, they are talking about skills and experience level. Everything is discrimination - if you're seeking to hire a software engineer you're probably going to discriminate against people who don't know how to code, people with low IQs, people who can't get along with the team, etc. The question becomes, is the discrimination legal and/or ethical and based…

Once upon a time "discrimination" had positive connotations, e.g. "he has discriminating tastes". Somehow the word has been twisted to be almost exclusively negative. But show me an organization that doesn't discriminate, and I'll show you an organization of utter incompetence.

> Somehow the word has been twisted to be almost exclusively negative.

Webster gives pride of place to both the transitive and intransitive definitions that could fit your "once upon a time" definition.[1]

Furthermore, of the six definitions given, five are what I'd consider a trait or ability that is wholly positive to possess. Only the 2nd definition for the intransitive form has a negative connotation.

> But show me an organization that doesn't discriminate, and I'll show you an organization of utter incompetence.

Any organization that isn't utterly incompetent would avoid using the ambiguous word "discriminate" in place of the unambiguous phrase "use good judgment."

Also, HR is just one tiny and narrow domain of human affairs. Music, writing, even dating see way more use of the positive definitions of "discriminate."

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#350

Post by sgnelson »

ryanmonroe wrote: post #196
agrippanux wrote: post #156

Age discrimination being rampant in our industry is a fantastic opportunity for an astute hiring manager. I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups. I can get a seasoned pro with a solid background in C - and other more trendy languages - for about the same price of a 3-years-working-experience "senior dev" who likely was battlefield commissioned into the role at their last…

> I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups Going "out of [your] way" to hire older devs sounds like age discrimination. AFAIK, age discrimination in this direction isn't illegal in America, but it seems odd that you would respond to an article decrying age-discrimination by proudly declaring that you discriminate too, in the opposite direction. Maybe you just meant that you…

I think you're confusing age with experience. The sad fact is that experience in important, and there's only way of getting it, letting time go by.
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