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Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

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Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#341

Post by icebraining »

donatj wrote: post #339
icebraining wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if the personal data is necessary to provide the service. And "my business model makes it necessary" doesn't cut it. Otherwise you need consent, but you can't DoS if it's denied. EDIT: removed wrong link.

I can't deny you service if you don't agree to my terms of service? That seems to fundamentally break contract law.

I'd phrase it the other way around: you can't impose certain clauses in the contract (in this case, an obligation to consent to certain kinds of processing of personal data). Laws forbidding certain contract clauses are nothing new.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#342

Post by KozmoNau7 »

rock_hard wrote: post #331
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook would work perfectly fine with fake data and without privacy violations. I can sign up with a fake date of birth and a throwaway email account, under a generic name (remove any identifying unique spelling or middle names, for instance) or a completely fake name. And I could still connect with friends and family, provided I know the names they've chosen to use on FB. According to the GDPR, anything you share…

I don't know if you are trolling or serious...I guess I and about 2B others might be using facebook differently than you then? I also don't find any of the data that FB or Google have of me "disturbingly extensive" or that they have been "breaking laws" to get it. I give them data so they can provide value to my life...it's as simple as that! If that deal doesn't work for you then you simply shouldn't use their produ…

I work at a telco/ISP, where I am directly responsible for multiple web-accessible and internal applications that have to be GDPR-compliant. I assure you that I am absolutely not trolling. As a professional, I take the GDPR extremely seriously, and in my private life I am very interested in keeping my private information private.

Have you downloaded FB's data dump of you? That is only the bare surface of what they collect. They do not give you access to the underlying profiling and the social graph they have built on your information. All you are getting is chat logs, uploaded photos/videos, a list of contacts/friends and some simple keywords. That's not even scratching the surface of the data model FB has on every single user.

The data you think you're giving them and the data they actually have are orders of magnitude apart.

The "well you can just choose not to use them" argument falls completely flat when you realize that many businesses and organizations have no internet presence outside of Facebook. They've set up a Facebook page because "everyone has Facebook, right?". If you cannot see the problem with that, then I'm not sure what to say.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#343

Post by KozmoNau7 »

zerostar07 wrote: post #333
cabaalis wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American here; I just don't quite understand the premise. "Here is what you are giving us, and here is what you're getting in return" seems perfectly legit to me. If this interpretation of the law is correct, then the government is essentially saying the "in return" portion has to be eliminated. Which seems to be against the idea of trade.

Add to that: the EU is specifically excluding police and security services from GDPR. It's basically making the states the exclusive owners of private data.

There is a specific regulation applying to law enforcement, in addition to the core GDPR.

https://thinkgdpr.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/DIRECTIVE-E...

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#344

Post by Domenic_S »

rock_hard wrote: post #324
Domenic_S wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/11/17225482/facebook-shadow-...

The content of the article presents no evidence, proof or confirmation from FB that such profiles exist

It depends on what you mean by "profile". I've got a feeling you're using a very specific definition and we're not going to come to an agreement. For me, a shadow profile is a set of data that can be correlated with you personally after the fact if you do decide to sign up for an account.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#345

Post by xxpor »

apexalpha wrote: post #255
xxpor wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maximum penalty is 4% of WW revenue, right? What happens if FB just decides to pay that in perpetuity?

Then after 25 cases they'd be bankrupt for the year.

Oh, it's per incident. That makes more sense.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#346

Post by dorgo »

Domenic_S wrote: post #306
exolymph wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for one thing, nothing is objectively good or bad. Value judgments come from people, and people have widely varying perspectives. For another, the reason there's no mass exodus from Facebook is that Facebook users do not perceive the company as harming them. They perceive it as a useful service for staying in touch with friends and family. The utility it provides outweighs privacy concerns, because most people…

> nothing is objectively good or bad Just pointing out that this assertion is unjustifiably presented as fact.

can you expand on this? How is good or bad not subjective?

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#347

Post by zerostar07 »

purple-again wrote: post #87
ClassAndBurn wrote: post #42

GDPR doesn't cover enough of the population using Facebook to warrant such a change to their business model where you can use the service without them using your data. They believe they are entrenched enough to just require this (and likely are for many EU residents).

I'm really curious to find out if the GDPR privacy stance (I'm American, not well traveled, and with no non american social circle) is like the 'no JavaScript' community. Vastly over represented in the tech community and not really representative of the population as a whole. In other words, are 99% of European citizens going to just click through what ever annoying prompts they have to in order to get to their faceb…

In reality, caring so much about their privacy seems to be a German/Nordic thing. There was no public outcry that led to GDPR , it seems to have popped up more through bureaucracy rather than popular demand. I think most europeans are just as oblivious/indifferent to privacy issues as americans, and we don't even have the CA scandal here. So yes, 99% will just press accept and forget about it. It's mainly the vocal proponents that you hear.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#348

Post by Domenic_S »

dorgo wrote: post #346
Domenic_S wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nothing is objectively good or bad Just pointing out that this assertion is unjustifiably presented as fact.

can you expand on this? How is good or bad not subjective?

I'm not really interested in expanding directly, but if you're curious, answering that question is an entire field of study called ethics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#349

Post by chillacy »

Domenic_S wrote: post #348
dorgo wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you expand on this? How is good or bad not subjective?

I'm not really interested in expanding directly, but if you're curious, answering that question is an entire field of study called ethics . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

My understanding is that for the study of ethics, morality is absolute in that there is an absolute answer, even if we don't know what that answer is.

If there were no absolute answer, then ethics as a field can't exist.

But that seems a bit tautological to me. Moral absolutism stood on more solid ground at a time when the world was smaller and more religious.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#350

Post by chillacy »

sudouser wrote: post #298
pgwhalen wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though you never hear the counterpoint on HN, it’s important to remember that FB’s behaviors are not necessarily objectively bad - people can have different views on these things.

Facebook is a textbook on dark ux and addiction

I could see someone saying that the ends justify the means. Check out this line of thought:

1. I support opt-in by default organ donation because even though it's a "dark pattern", it creates the most public good.

2. I think developing AI will lead to lots of good things. Therefore I think the ends justify the means.

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