A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists • Hacker News Board

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#341

Post by frabbit » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 1:48 PM UTC

Boltgolt wrote: post #281

7952 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most roads in the UK are perfectly well designed to handle bike traffic. But they are not designed for the massive quantity of vehicle traffic travelling at relatively high speed on roads originally designed for a different age. Danger to cyclists are a symptom of this wider problem which we have no real solution for. Also, this particular junction is terribly designed for cars and will result in collisions.

I mean, you say that, but every time I see cyclists on an A road or pedestrian crossings on a 2-2 lane highway I die a little inside

You can live again! Get out of the car.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#342

Post by heavenlyblue » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

glenneroo wrote: post #291

papermule wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedestrians are, with the exception of some rural areas, provided with dedicated carriage such as a pavement or sidewalk. The rules of crossing the road are well defined and in some European countries pedestrians are even arrested for J walking.

> in some European countries pedestrians are even arrested for J walking. Not quite, however you may be ticketed, if you happen to do it in front of a grumpy officer. I have only heard of it happening to a friend of a friend and the fine was under 40 euros.

In Baltics you’re certainly fined the moment you take your first step on the pavement. It started with a war against reckless driving and ended up in this state as of now.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#343

Post by billfruit » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

Does cyclists count as pedestrians, and if so is entitled to ride on the opposite direction as follow ed by vehicular traffic.That is if cars drive on the left, then cyclists ride on the right, as do pedestrians?

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#344

Post by phkahler » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

>> The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop sign on the other, flatter road, or make it a 4-way stop. The drivers causing accidents were blowing through the intersection, and shame on the wording of the law that they were able to weasel out of harsher punishment.

It seems the cyclists are blowing through the intersection as well. To me the problem is simply that it's an uncontrolled intersection where nobody is required to stop. Why blame the driver so much?

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#345

Post by ygra » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 1:56 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #68

ajmurmann wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought only the US loved stop signs.

Poland also loves stop signs. Actually, Poland just loves signs in general which is a problem: https://d-w24.ppstatic.pl/g2/6b/6f/65/116789_1258901612_33ec...

Well, one reason for that amount of signage is that there are multiple roads from the right and some of those signs only extend to the next junction. There's simply no way to have fewer of those signs. Same for the pedestrian crossings.

Some of the signs are only relevant to pedestrians and cyclists, or motorists looking for a place to park, so it's not that bad.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#346

Post by papermule » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

mgbmtl wrote: post #332

papermule wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, a bike is capable of moving at speeds high enough to cause severe harm to the rider or pedestrians. What if the threshold for a test was based on the average speeds of the vehicle?

Have there been a lot of pedestrian deaths (or serious injuries) caused by cyclists in your area? How does it compare to deaths/accidents caused by collisions with cars? I'm also pretty sure that most of those accidents could be avoided by having better cycling infrastructures.

There have been a couple. However, when it does happen it gets a lot of media attention, the most recent incident taking place on Oxford Street, a popular shopping street in London: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41263926

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#347

Post by ptaipale » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 2:05 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #331

ptaipale wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Statistics show that in the large majority of cases of accidents between cycles and motor vehicles, the driver of the motor vehicle is at fault. Requiring a license for cycles will do just about nothing to fix this. As a regular cyclist, I would say that requiring a license from cyclists would certainly do something to fix this: make cyclists more aware of it. Over here, about 2/3 of collisions between motor vehicle…

> Over here, about 2/3 of collisions between motor vehicle and bicycle are fault of the motor vehicle driver. But that leaves 1/3 where cyclist errors or breaches of traffic code are reason, which is also significant. You are assuming that this 1/3rd is due to lack of knowledge - I question that assertion. And still, regular retraining of motor vehicle drivers would still be a better investment. They choose to move a…

Likewise, that 2/3 is mostly not due to lack of knowledge. Over here (Finland), driving license training and testing nowadays has increased "attitude" training, as that is seen becoming more important than knowledge of traffic rules etc.

Here, a motor vehicle was involved in 62 % of all bicyclist deaths over the period 2011-2015 (116 cases). Motor vehicle was not the guilty party in all of those (but in roughly 2/3 of them). So, motor vehicle driver was at fault in about 40 % of cyclist deaths.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#348

Post by ygra » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 2:07 PM UTC

beobab wrote: post #263

keir-rex wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a subset of drivers in the UK who have a resentment to sharing the road with cyclists. Their primary arguments follow; “car drivers pay road tax...” or “cyclists should be forced to sit a driving/road test...” blah blah. There are certainly cyclists who do nothing to help the reputation for the rest but car drivers fail to realise how vulnerable cyclists and motorcyclists are.

I think a requirement of a year's worth of cycling on the road before you can have a driver's license would increase cycling awareness significantly. Nothing raises your appreciation of the difficulties faced by a group more than belonging to that group in a real and physical manner on a daily basis. Not that I think it would be implementable: Humans are remarkably good at rejecting constraints.

Interestingly I've become a much better cyclist after obtaining my driver's license. It made me very aware of the fact that you can't see anything from cars (compared to the elevated and pillar-free view from a bike) so you have to be aware of that fact as a cyclist and react accordingly. Some things cyclists do without thinking much are stupidly dangerous and I think this often is the result of cyclists and drivers being two different sets of people.

Also I got to know the rules of the road much better than before and could adjust by behaviour to follow the law. I didn't go over red lights before, but there are a bunch of other things where cyclists don't tend to follow the rules of the road and IMHO it creates a much less stressful environment for everyone if they just did so.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#349

Post by justjash » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #305

lmm wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be careful not to conflate two things: conforming to red lights isn't a goal in itself, safety is the goal. A lot of drivers get exercised about "cyclists running red lights" in cases that are actually safer than the alternatives, e.g. cyclists crossing a junction ahead of motor traffic when the junction doesn't have a dedicated light phase for cyclists. Cyclists running up the inside mostly happens because wai…

waiting in a queue of traffic at a light or junction is very dangerous for a cyclist When I'm approaching traffic lights and there's a queue of traffic and no bike box, I stop my bike at the tail of the queue, in the middle of the lane - just like I would on my motorbike or in my car. I'm curious as to what you think the danger is in that situation?

I generally wait with the traffic also when there is no bike lane/box. The only thing I ever worry about is getting hit from behind by some idiot not paying attention. I do try to mitigate this by turning my bike at an angle so that I look a little bigger.

This is all dependent on the traffic/intersection though, things vary depending on the circumstances.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#350

Post by jasonmaydie » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #30

u801e wrote: post #5

Why does this junction not have a roundabout? Would having one there reduce the chances for a crash by forcing vehicles to reduce their speed when approaching the intersection?

Another comment explained how the UK hates stop signs, but yes, a roundabout would be a great and very British/European solution that would probably be very effective.

I still don't understand this comment. A stop sign a simple 100$ fix to the problem but we hate stop signs so...