James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#341

Post by saint_fiasco » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:34 PM UTC

jgh wrote: post #281

saint_fiasco wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has that worked in the past? I've never made a fuckup of nearly the same magnitude, but the times I made a mistake in public apologizing always made things worse.

Has what worked in the past? Admitting you were wrong and apologizing? Sure it's a good way of resolving conflicts if you were actually wrong. People grow and change throughout life, I don't think that being a knucklehead in the past necessarily means you're a knucklehead now.

Admitting you were wrong and apologizing in public, specifically.

An individual can be reasoned with, placated. You can make reparations, promises that the other person will believe because of a precedent of mutual trust and forgiveness.

However, you can't do that with an angry mob.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#342

Post by mdarens » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:34 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

ironically if he had a union he likely would've had the protection of a grievance process and not been subject to summary termination, regardless of how sexist his views were

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#343

Post by jimrandomh » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:35 PM UTC

ihsw2 wrote: post #276

jimrandomh wrote: post #249

This clearly is (or is going to be) a Demon Thread. https://www.lesserwrong.com/posts/BZtAavpsy9WtMYgEL/demon-th... . People seem to be angry about what was said in the past, but don't agree on what was actually said or what those things meant. Attempts to clarify seem to mostly be throwing fuel on the fire instead. None of this is helping.

Social constructivists and progressive supremacists are the only ones angry about what he said -- he exposes their narrative as fraudulently based on moral principles.

This comment appears calculated to make people angry without adding anything of value to the discussion. I would appreciate if you would delete it.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#344

Post by pyrrhotech » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:35 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

Did your read the memo? It is hardly a far-right opinion piece...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#345

Post by lukev » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:35 PM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #166

lukev wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strawman. Nobody is saying that Damore thinks every man is a better programmer than every woman. He suggested that on average men are biologically more suited to programming, and the contention of his opponents is that that is still a problematic and inappropriate thing to say.

He very clearly stated that the average male programmer is as good as the average female programmer. Please don't insinuate otherwise by stripping away some of the semantics Mr. Damore used - he used it for a reason to make a more precise claim than you're criticizing.

Again, that's not the argument. Even stating that men are more suited to become programmers* is problematic!

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#346

Post by propman » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:36 PM UTC

perseusprime11 wrote: post #292

vowelless wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn…

Never knew joe organ was right wing. I've been listening to his podcasts which seem pretty good.

He's not "right wing". Hating SJWs and the extreme left isn't right wing. People are complicated and labeling someone as right wing to invalidate someone's every position is as bad as what the right does to the left.

He is if anything fairly moderate with a slight libertarian streak, especially when it comes to drugs.

I don't agree with lots of his positions and he's definitely not some really smart guru, but I like that he's an average guy with an open mind who lets speakers of all viewpoints express themselves in a very welcoming way. I mean hosting Jordan Peterson and Brett Weinstein, both on the 2 ends of the political spectrum and making it a very intellectually stimulating dialogue is a breath of fresh air in today's gotcha media. You know CNN and fox have an agenda when they bring opposing viewpoints on their show, trying to invalidate their ideas. In joe rogan's podcasts that never seems to be the case, instead discussion leads to more moderate viewpoints rather than debates and winners. Only really see that on PBS lately.

That said, I do find many of his guests abhorant and just skip a fair bit of his podcasts.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#347

Post by stevenwoo » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:36 PM UTC

FabHK wrote: post #327

dopamean wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was really what did it for me. I read the document and I'll be honest, I didn't really hear the dog whistles and I didn't get particularly worked up about it. I thought it kinda read like pseudo-science and that was about it. But then the dude appeared on Mike Cernovich's show and was all over r/the_donald and I was like, "oh this is who this guy is." I hate to judge someone by the company they keep but this guy…

I'd be interested to know whether more liberal media/shows extended invitations to him (that he declined?), or whether it was only conservative platforms that allowed him to present his case.

The Guardian interviewed him. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/16/james-dam...

When the memo came out, the Guardian reported that news outlets contacted him and Damore went with anti-feminist youtubers for a more friendly reception. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/09/james-dam...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#348

Post by saturdaysaint » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

Shank wrote: post #194

Just for once, I'd like a story like this to turn out positively. Not in that James wins or loses this lawsuit, but that something could be positively gained in his life from this experience. Being fired from Google has been traumatizing. He's gone farther and farther into the "unrecoverable from a PR standpoint" zone, and that's really horrible. 10 years from now, he's going to have a hard time finding employment or…

10 years from now, he's going to have a hard time finding employment or basic living possible.

Given today's tight labor market, he has plenty of options. If he was good enough to get into Google, at the bare minimum he could do fine in corporate IT. In a lot of red states, his past might even be an asset. If he's willing to keep his head down and feign contrition, he could probably work just about anywhere except the top tech companies.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#349

Post by jasonlotito » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

saint_fiasco wrote: post #244

jgh wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I notice none of those options include "admit he was wrong and apologize". I'm sure he doesn't have to work for a top-tier tech company either.

Has that worked in the past? I've never made a fuckup of nearly the same magnitude, but the times I made a mistake in public apologizing always made things worse.

Yes. 100% it has worked. I've fucked up in the past, apologized, and made things much, much better.

Edit: I feel some might be reading this wrong. I'm did not say it works 100% of the time. I said that I'm 100% certain it has worked because it's worked for me.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#350

Post by rdtsc » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

ebbv wrote: post #10

Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

From his memo: > I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. He said exactly that, right there. Why do conservatives…

> He said exactly that, right there.

You even highlight the word _exactly_ but that is not what he said. That quote says they don't have equal representation and there maybe biological differences to blame.

The main reason for confusion seems to be the quote assumes women might not be as attracted by tech work as men are. That assumption changes the meaning because in your interpretation "Women want to be in tech as much as men and D'Amore is saying they just don't have the genes for it" vs "Women want to be in tech less than men to start with and besides bigotry, hate and marginalization, cultural biases, there could be a biological explanation for it".

I know we all think tech is awesome, we are getting paid to do what we love, etc. But it turns out many people, and maybe women more than men, don't find sitting in a cubicle all day inverting binary trees appealing. I don't think biology is the main driver here [+] but D'Amore does. He might be wrong, but I don't see why it had to become this controversial topic and lead to firing and lawsuits. They could have just said "here is why science doesn't support your view, thanks for starting the discussion, but you're wrong" and leave it at that.

[+] I don't support his view, I'd personally blame culture for women not even wanting to be in tech. Having lived in Eastern Europe where there is less "stigma" against girls liking math and computer science. It's not a cause, or a talking point at least, it's just a profession like accountant or doctor.