> So I’m not the problem you’re trying to solve.
I guess the natural question is "how would you go to find and fix the problem?" (not complaining here, I think the post is great)
I'm not a Woman in Tech
341–350 of 621 posts
Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech
#342Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll file that away alongside, "The only people who care about privacy are those with something to hide".
Not at all; that's an argument used against the right of privacy. GP was merely remarking that those who lament free speech being dead seem to be, at least from my point of view, those who say bad things. Maybe they have a right to say them, but you'll find this occuring elsewhere. Voat for example was set up as a website that's like reddit but free from "censorship". That being its attractive quality, many people wh…
Even when looked at from a progressive perspective I think what you're bringing up is a bigger problem to be honest.
You're taking people who maybe think that say, write shitty things about fat people or want to use that as motivation to lose weight and putting them in a basket with people who were subscribed to /r/niggers.
Pushing people out of major communities over minor offenses only results in the promotion of more offensive views in those people. This kind of exclusion from the mainstream results in extremification of views in those individuals. I've felt it myself, I've found myself agreeing with things that I know mere years ago I would have outright rejected, but now contemplate. People don't back down on views like that, they just clamp down harder. So in my opinion it's a lot better to just argue with them and not to censor them.
Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
> a company should be focused on acquiring the best developers they can, not finding ones of a specific gender I respectfully disagree. This position doesn't take into account how existing gender biases affect those who are choosing which field to enter. If a field is primarily composed of men, then young women may not feel welcome in the field and may go elsewhere, meaning there are fewer good developers in the pool…
Are you suggesting that "half the population" is not as capable? That's the only way they would be excluded according to the parent post.
Half the population is below average in a bell curve distribution.
Now it is up to you to decide if "below average" is the same as "not as capable".
Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech
#344There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…
I think you're missing the point of the article. It's not that these things don't exist, or didn't exist for her -- of course they do. The point seems, to me at least, to be that in order to attempt to actually solve these problems you can't actively (or passively) try to exclude yourself from the people causing them. It's like politics -- if you separate yourself into "us" versus "them", how are you ever supposed to…
> It's like politics -- if you separate yourself into "us" versus "them", how are you ever supposed to work together to find a solution?
It's not like that at all. Ideologies exist on a spectrum. And there are some on the extreme ends that are so reprehensible that there's no good reason to find a way to include them in any reasonable dialog.
I don't care how hurt someone feels if they can't find a safe space to talk about their racist ideas. If you're a little racist on the inside, fine, just be uncomfortable and don't be racist on the outside. We're not here to police how people think but you better watch how you behave. I won't feel sorry for you if someone punches you in the face.
The real problem is that centuries of oppression have made sexism normal. It's part of the institution. It's invisible to most people. There isn't a clear label you can apply to people to sort out whose sexist. It's everywhere. How do you fight something like that?
I want it to be normal as hell to be a woman/person of colour/queer/etc-in-tech (and the rest of the world). I don't look at programs that give people recognition or assistance as a pity-party or somehow makes them less. I see it as evening the playing field... but it's only treating a symptom. The harder battle is curing the disease.
Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech
#345"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly…
Her follow up sentence... "You’re also indicating that “this is a women’s problem, best solved by women” but that deepens the divide, creating an “us” and a “them”. Just based on gender…" I also find just as provocative. She's flipping the narrative very effectively with these short punchy hard to miss articulations. I remember feeling taken for granted with some other special help recruitment Facebook dished out for seemingly unrepresented groups. It was totally not my thing and turned out to sour my impression of the company.
Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is that approach not entirely just an opinion of yours though? How can you state so firmly (in opposition to many here) that "you're practically guaranteeing permanent under-correction". I think that statement is only true if those in the majority have no desire for true equity - which then is begging the question. If the hypothetical 'truly equitable' personality exists, is it not of some moral repugnancy to require…
> How can you state so firmly (in opposition to many here) that "you're practically guaranteeing permanent under-correction" Because "no more than" usually means "less than" in a vast range of contexts, with computer programs being a rare exception. This is particularly evident in matters of justice. "Innocent until proven guilty" and "beyond reasonable doubt" and all of the restrictions on evidence practically guara…
I think there is no argument that the ragged edge will bump around the ideal line - and that in a reasonable expectation of how society works.
The question is more of policy and strategy in how to arrive there. And in that it is unclear that a "fast-and-overshoot" is any 'better' than "slow and steady" vs any other strategy. You have not shown that any one strategy is more wrong, nor more right. Nor is there any collective definition of where 'eventual' may lay, preventing the most accurate strategies that might require, 'going fast, then slowing down, then slightly overshooting, then correcting'.
More specifically, exactly, this is a 'dilemma', and to frame it as a solved argument, essentially saying, 'get with the program' is unhelpful. And the author of the article is pointing out exactly that the "small price to pay" in some cases is being borne by exactly the group that one says they are trying to help. And in that, the "small price to pay" may actually not be so small as to overcome the inherent nature of the dilemma. The dilemma is very real.
Can you not see the perspective that you are telling the article's author that she should "confront her own privilege" and pay the [moral] price of intentionally discriminating against someone that she otherwise would not, because it's somehow better for her in the long run, maybe? That is a very perverse action that you are forcing onto her, that she may not wish to take, even if you say it is in her best long-term interest. For how long should she discriminate, and how strongly, and on what basis? It might actually be in her moral interest to not engage in such a program at all. And that is precisely why this dilemma is both difficult and not so easily remedied with broad strategic declarations.
Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech
#347I stopped reading after "agile coach". Yeah, she's not in tech.
Please don't comment like this here.
Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.
As a fresh US immigrant from the middle of Europe yet visually passing as an average white man, I haven't even shared the style of upbringing that people assume I did, and yet I lean closer to the opinion expressed above because I fear that a determined person with an agenda can find a way to use my story or opinions to illustrate their point and paint me and broad classes of people as problematic in the process. I e…
this comment speaks my own views in many ways. thanks for sharing.
i'm still bothered by the active censorship of comments and discussion that occurred earlier in the week, and i hope this discussion is informative for the moderators, who are hopefully having discussions about how best to handle similar situations in the future.
Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.
As a fresh US immigrant from the middle of Europe yet visually passing as an average white man, I haven't even shared the style of upbringing that people assume I did, and yet I lean closer to the opinion expressed above because I fear that a determined person with an agenda can find a way to use my story or opinions to illustrate their point and paint me and broad classes of people as problematic in the process. I e…
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Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech
#350Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree that feminism is promoting equality. I think I'm approaching it exactly right. Your response is conceptually exactly why I no longer post opinions as myself on social media now. If this were a personal discussion on Facebook or Twitter, the left's censorship/control attack wave would be rolling in right now, calling me countless labels (instead, here you'll just get downvotes, your life won't be ruined and…
Adventured is right, about both feminism and censorship. I think the ERA would actually help men more than women. Right now it is much better to be a woman in america. Feminism has more than accomplished its goals of equality. Women can do anything they want, yet they also get these benefits: If accused of a crime less likely to be convicted If they hit a man far less likely to be charged with harsh domestic violence…
This is the sort of generic ideological rant that we're trying to avoid here, and we ban accounts that use HN primarily for this purpose. So would you please stop posting like this to HN? Nothing good or new can come of it; these discussions are always the same and always become nasty. Boring and uncivil are the two sins on HN.