Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 395 posts

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#341

Post by developer2 »

stickfigure wrote: post #301
ryandrake wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neat, but in practice it doesn't work. In my ~20 years experience, I've found that while things like salary and vacation are negotiable, the terms in tech employment contracts are not negotiable. I've tried that cute "strike out the stuff in your employment agreement that you don't agree to" move, and in ALL cases, received a stern note from the corporate legal department a few days later basically saying "Sign it un…

As a contractor, I've seen these before - and more frequently, the indemnification clause. I've always just sent a apologetic but firm email saying that I cannot accept those clauses and they always get removed without any drama or handwringing. Admittedly I'm on the upper end of the experience scale, but I think there's a lot more wiggle room than most people realize. Also, this is a pretty decent litmus test for an…

>> I've always just sent a apologetic but firm email saying that I cannot accept those clauses and they always get removed

Hold on, everyone! My parent(^) said something simple, yet it is powerful. I don't believe s/he realized they were providing such insightful information, but the little gem that makes a huge difference is in that short quote.

While many companies may not be flexible with their contracts, I love your approach. Surely the odds of success must improve - if only slightly - by simply pointing out undesirable clauses and requesting that they modify and reissue the contract to accommodate, rather than striking it out in red ink yourself and shoving it back in their faces as an ultimatum.

The former tactic de-escalates the issue to being a reasonable request from a respectful person, while the latter comes across as coming from an immovably stubborn personality who may bring a habit of causing drama into the company. Better to politely identify how the employer can effect a positive difference on your end, rather than railing against the company's policies with your demands before you've even been hired. "My way or the highway" doesn't sound very amiable.

How often do companies reject red-inked contracts, not because they are unwilling to amend the contract, but because their intuition has triggered them into avoiding your coarse methods of getting what you want? Seriously, this is quite eye-opening. You've made me rethink my negotiation phase. I will be unapologetically thieving this diplomatic approach for my personal use in the future. Thank you!

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#342

Post by mcv »

lotharbot wrote: post #57
mikeash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been presented with one (and hope I never will) so this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time imagining even doing that. A company is paying me to work for them, they're not paying to own me. When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want. I'd make an exception if they increased my pay accordingly. But considering that they're asking for 4.2x more of…

> "When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want." At least one of the reasons for a non-compete clause is to make sure you're not doing stuff on the clock for your employer, and then getting double-paid by a competitor for essentially the same end result but without the competitor having to pay for the whole process of getting that result. Like, if they're payi…

There's a huge difference between double dipping and signing away your right to work. Why is common sense in such short supply?

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#343

Post by mcv »

linkregister wrote: post #84
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

I hear this advice about contracts of adhesion all the time, "just red line out the parts you don't like, just like in that scene in 50 Shades of Gray." Who in the software industry still gets offers like that? Everyone I know gets a DocuSign PDF they sign digitally. There's no opportunity to alter the document. There is basically no non-confrontational way to do this. If a software developer has a competing offer, s…

There is absolutely a non-confrontational way to do this. Call them. Tell them you have a few questions about a couple of points in the contract. Ask them what point 3.2 means, tell them you'd like point 4.1 can be rephrased to make something clearer, and that you'd like the non-compete clause clause in 7.2 to be limited in duration and scope, because the way it's currently phrased, it could be interpreted as signing away your right to work, and that's obviously unreasonable.

Be reasonable, and you will likely get most of what you want. If they are unreasonable, you're probably better off working somewhere else.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#344

Post by mcv »

AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #112
3pt14159 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Only if you're very inexperienced will this be tricky, once you're senior nobody bats an eye when I ask for things to be changed in the contract. A contract is part of communicating how we will work together. Demonstrate that you're competent by clearly communicating the changes you want and why you want them and if they react back poorly then you dodged a major bullet, since they'll also communicate poorly in…

I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now. I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotia…

Don't bitch and scream. That's terrible way to start a working relationship. Just tell them which clauses are not acceptable to you, and suggest reasonable changes that take their interests into account.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#345

Post by LusoTycoon »

timvp wrote: post #258
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

In the Netherlands is not legally enforceable either. You can only enforce not be able to take clients with you to your new employer for a fixed amount of time (e.g. 6 months).

There was an update in 2015 for defined term contracts.

It requires the non competes clause to define duration, geographical scope and explanation why the interests of the employee require it.

Not sure it was altogether thrown away.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#346

Post by bythckr »

ryandrake wrote: post #293
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Neat, but in practice it doesn't work. In my ~20 years experience, I've found that while things like salary and vacation are negotiable, the terms in tech employment contracts are not negotiable. I've tried that cute "strike out the stuff in your employment agreement that you don't agree to" move, and in ALL cases, received a stern note from the corporate legal department a few days later basically saying "Sign it un…

I have ~10 yrs exp. Till date I have got non-competence clause 4 times, of that I removed the clause 3 times and did not sign the time they refused to remove it.

I just explained my case logically, respectfully and directly (face to face) to my line manager. My case was:

- Its understood that I will not work a second job. Though I will volunteer for some charity.

- Considering my domain expertise, I am more likely to get a job in a similar domain. If my future employer demands me to implement the same tech as my pervious employer, its a red flag that this company is clueless and will sink soon. If I volunteer the details of my previous companies operations, it just means that I am untrustworthy and I will not be trusted in the new company. So sharing details of my previous job is a bad idea.

The 4th company manager was not even willing to discuss with me about my agreement and wanted me to go to the legal dept directly. That was clear sign that this was a very bureaucratic and not suited for me.

Of course, I have only worked in small to medium sized company and they was no secret algorithms worth in the millions or billions involved. That I am sure is a different case, like the current Google vs Uber over the tech stolen by Otto from Waymo.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#347

Post by mcv »

afterburner wrote: post #319
rhapsodic wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you know what a power imbalance is? Yes. >You think having your life controlled by a corporation is a sign of a free society? When it comes to me signing a contract that some corporation would like me to sign, I have complete, inviolable power to NOT sign it. The power over my signature is 100% mine.

What if you need that job to make ends meet?

That's the real problem of course: we're dependent on food we can't grow, and houses we can't build, and that makes us unfree. If everybody was automatically provided with the basic necessities, we'd be free to negotiate on a more equal footing.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#348

Post by waldfee »

michalu wrote: post #340

In Europe these clauses are not enforceable. Whether you sign a contract with such clause or not is irrelevant since it's not a qualified subject of a contract. You can write in your contract whatever you want but only the qualified subjects are binding.

I've signed all the non-compete clauses that where present in my contracts because those clauses are simply null and void.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#349

Post by pluma »

I'm not entirely sure how this compares to the situation under German (EU?) law:

Generally noncompetes are fairly widespread to varying extents. The default seems to be that you can't compete with your employer while you are employed (whether it's by freelancing on the side, poaching their customers or directly working for another competitor) though in practice employers will generally grant you permission to have a side-job as long as there's no conflict of interest and it doesn't impact your job performance.

However noncompetes terminate once the employment ends. The only way to extend the duration of the noncompete is by having the contract also reimburse you for the duration of that extended noncompete. Both sides can agree to lift that extension but if it's in the contract, the employer will likely have to pay for a certain amount of time whether they want to enforce the noncompete or not.

So in other words, while there may be scenarios where noncompetes impact your ability to find another job while still employed, the second your employment terminates, you're either free or continually being paid an appropriate sum of money.

As a freelancer I had clients that insisted on some form of noncompete, but these were generally only protecting them from me "skipping the middleman" and working for their customers directly -- which even without noncompetes would have created some dodgy situations.

I've actually seen multiple major consulting companies (often international ones or subsidiaries of international ones) that explicitly required a noncompete so vague that it would have practically prevented me from working for any company in the industry while also working for them -- because there would have been just no easy way for me to tell whether I was accidentally working for one of their customers or not. I never signed those but considering that certain companies like to just put into contracts whatever they would love to be able to do without any concern for validity or enforceability, I wonder what the legal situation around those would have looked like.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#350

Post by loup-vaillant »

kobeya wrote: post #215
phkahler wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And while he's working another shift at another company he's getting additional training which is good for the first employer. This is all bullshit trying to argue the validity of modern day slavery.

Be reasonable. It's not slavery, nor even indentured servitude when you can quit at any time.

> It's not slavery, nor even indentured servitude when you can quit at any time.

Many people can't. I mean, they can, but they can't afford it, unless they're willing to risk homelessness.

Post reply on HN