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Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

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Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#341
post #338
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not convinced that 91.3 and 91.11 CFR 14 are suspended once the airplane is stationary on the ground, could you elaborate? ICAO defines an accident to be "An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked" and fulfilling various further criteria. So, accordi…

Neither FAR applies when you're fully in compliance with safety instructions and regulations, but not complying with non-safety requests ostensibly based strictly on the contract of carriage. FAR 91.3(a) does not give the pilot the power to command you to drop trou and kiss your own ass, or else he'll throw you off the plane. That's not the intent behind that regulation, at all. It's a safety regulation, to give the…

> That's not the intent behind that regulation, at all. It's a safety regulation

Granted, of course. But it does give the captain the authority, I'd claim - you follow the orders, and then later (outside the airplane) might discuss, question, and take legal recourse.

What if you refuse to switch off your electronic device during take-off, pointing out (correctly, most likely) that it's not actually safety relevant? Or you refuse to move your luggage, sitting in a window seat, arguing that it won't hamper anyone's evacuation? Or what if someone is standing up during taxi arguing that most likely there won't be any sudden acceleration, if so only they themselves are likely to be injured, and they'll hold on to something anyways?

Or, to take a case I've thought about a lot, Saudia Flight 163. The plane took off, caught fire, landed, and taxied. Apparently there was some delay before evacuation, and all people on board perished in the fire. Maybe they would've been better off if some pax had initiated the evacuation before the order was given. Does that now justify that we make our own judgement as passengers as to when to evacuate? And talking of evacuation, you are not supposed to bring your cabin luggage with you as it might obstruct others. But hey, I'll be really fast taking it out, and it's really important to me (maybe I'm a doctor, and my stethoscope is in there), and it's really small, so I'll just take my luggage anyway, I'm so special and it's not safety relevant in my judgement. Do you really want to open the door to everyone making their own judgements in these matters?

See, my instinct in all these cases is - no, you follow the instructions of the crew. Part of it is historical, of course - aviation used to be a dangerous business. In the army and on a ship and in an airplane, you follow orders by the commander - because the stakes are so high (death, and not only for yourself, but also for others), and the asymmetry in information is so high.

Now, yes, there are exceptions (in another comment board someone, in true Godwin's law, did bring up the holocaust and slavery when I argued for following the law), see the Radbruch formula, developed by German law professors after WW II stating that you have to follow the law, unless "it is unbearably injust".

So my point in this whole discussion (as a pilot myself with a smidgen of familiarity with the airline business) is: you follow the instructions of the captain (and by extension, crew), except in extreme cases, or suffer the consequences.

Now, you could make the argument that these broad historical circumstances have shifted. Aviation has been a victim of its own success, in a sense - it is so incredibly safe today (thanks to adherence to well thought-out procedures), that people perceive it more like a bus trip than a dangerous journey. And who wants to listen to a bus driver? What expertise does he have? We all know how to drive.

That argument can be made, and maybe it is right. But I'd argue that if we let everyone make their own judgements as to what is safe or legal on board, we jeopardise the very safety that's been achieved. So far, the jurisdiction of captain and crew on a plane or vessel are pretty absolute (remember that they can or could perform marriages, for example), I'd say, and deliberately so.

Is this a case where that authority has been abused? Maybe (though if the deadheading crew didn't reach their destination, planeloads of pax would have been denied a flight). But is it a reason to throw the whole edifice out of the window? I don't think so, yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudia_Flight_163

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radbruch_formula

PS: I note in passing that my posts on this issue are my most down voted ever, burning some Karma here, but hey, saying what I think :-)

Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was overbooked those excess passengers weren't on the plane. United wanted to fly 4 of their own employees (who showed up after everyone was boarded and seated) and "asked" for 4 seats from boarded paying customers. Without the employee passengers they were not overbooked or any overbooked passengers were not on the plane and we're irrelevant to the situation. I have flown plenty of times with other airlines wh…

In the instance of the kids, the kids that were refused an erection were not following the dress code.

/me thinks you have an autocomplete issue.

Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#343
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could settle this by experiment easily if we're trying to prove this to you: go ahead and try posting one, in similar vein to the others. There'd be a false-negative rate if you do it too late so I would try it now.

I've been posting negative-sentiment tweets about United since yesterday. If we do accept the premise that Twitter would do something like this, we should also assume that they'd be selective in which tweets they've deleted, such as tweets that aren't likely to be noticed when gone. There are too many independent variables and unknowns for there to be an easy experiment. In any case, I'd be happy for other kinds of e…

>If we do accept the premise that Twitter would do something like this, we should also assume that they'd be selective in which tweets they've deleted

Maybe twitter has a team of lawyers sending them lists of Ids to remove, citing DMCA or whatever.

Of course the hypothetical team of lawyers couldn't keep up, and the whole idea is ludicrous, but twitter might comply.

Who knows?

Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#344
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This system they have in place is the reason you can find flights for extremely low fares that were once unheard of. Obviously this could have been handled better, but I think people should bear in mind that these inconveniences are the very reason they're saving so much money. This is a rough instance of it, but if you buy a first class ticket you can bet this won't be happening to you. All that said, everyone has t…

I think there's a few tragedies here that people seem to be missing. 1. A man not clearly identified as a man of authority was empowered to physically remove a passenger from an airplane. I've seen 3 videos so far and while it's not obvious that the passenger questioned his authority, he should have. Given how things unfolded, I wouldn't be surprised to hear next that the man who removed the passenger was actually a…

I couldn't agree more with you when it comes to the authority and his execution. I've just seen a lot of people railing against the system of overbooking and the general shitiness of modern air travel. I spent most of my childhood flying as a non-rev thanks to my dad, so I got very used to flying when there was empty seats, and on occasion I was asked to get out of the plane after already seated because a higher priority showed up late. It was always a heart breaker, but that's the life of a non-rev. So I guess I have a different perspective, and think people should appreciate cheap air travel. Again, all of that having been said, people should voice their opinions and hopefully this will change how these incidents are handled.

Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#345
post #341
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither FAR applies when you're fully in compliance with safety instructions and regulations, but not complying with non-safety requests ostensibly based strictly on the contract of carriage. FAR 91.3(a) does not give the pilot the power to command you to drop trou and kiss your own ass, or else he'll throw you off the plane. That's not the intent behind that regulation, at all. It's a safety regulation, to give the…

> That's not the intent behind that regulation, at all. It's a safety regulation Granted, of course. But it does give the captain the authority, I'd claim - you follow the orders, and then later (outside the airplane) might discuss, question, and take legal recourse. What if you refuse to switch off your electronic device during take-off, pointing out (correctly, most likely) that it's not actually safety relevant? O…

I think your scope creep of FAR 91.3 and 91.11 into non-operational and non-safety airline business decisions is uncompelling, and in fact I see it as a risk to flight safety.

The scope creep of these powers increases the risk of abusing that power, and when people are caught in the act of abusing power, it reduces trust. And that loss of trust can risk lives in situations where a very high degree of trust is needed. So I take the position that FAR 91.3 and 91.11 do not make the crew god emperors in all things. I apply those regulations contextually.

And the context of the story of the week, that passenger was not in any way shape or form a safety risk to himself or anyone else, including the crew and therefore FARs simply do not apply at all. This was an airline business decision, it was strictly about money. I'm not going to deny a person who has the capacity to distinguish contexts from peacefully resisting a bullshit business request that relates to the airline's profits. You can't or don't want to distinguish contexts - fine for you.

As for flight 163, is an interesting choice given your position. Basically that airline had not learned the lessons of the 1977 Tenerife accident, which is basically that the absolute authority of the PIC is bullshit. That whole archaic culture of what the captain says goes, he's always right, do not question, just do what you're told, is a dead end concept from a bygone era. Now, we have crew resource management which merges the idea of all crew having a say when it comes to bringing up concerns related to safety, and once they've had their say the PIC is the final authority rather than an absolute authority. There's a difference.

Anyway, when everyone dies in an accident, it's hard to argue after the fact that the PIC was right, and everyone was right to just follow the orders.

Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rare because it's hard. Look at Europe and see how easy it is to do it with a truck.

It's really hard to get a truck on a passenger airplane, I agree.

This response is the online equivalent of plugging your ears and saying "LA LA LA I can't hear you!"

Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#347
post #345
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not the intent behind that regulation, at all. It's a safety regulation Granted, of course. But it does give the captain the authority, I'd claim - you follow the orders, and then later (outside the airplane) might discuss, question, and take legal recourse. What if you refuse to switch off your electronic device during take-off, pointing out (correctly, most likely) that it's not actually safety relevant? O…

I think your scope creep of FAR 91.3 and 91.11 into non-operational and non-safety airline business decisions is uncompelling, and in fact I see it as a risk to flight safety. The scope creep of these powers increases the risk of abusing that power, and when people are caught in the act of abusing power, it reduces trust. And that loss of trust can risk lives in situations where a very high degree of trust is needed.…

Thanks for the considered answer, I might have to rethink my position.

Not denying in the least BTW the lessons of Tenerife/CRM (and I brought up the Saudi 163 example precisely because it challenges PIC authority), just arguing that the devolution of authority should go as far as the crew, but not extend to pax.

As for distinguishing contexts, my argument is that an airplane is not the right place to have that discussion. Say I use my mobile phone, arguing that it is not actually safety relevant, and only a business decision by the airline because they want me to use their expensive credit card sat phone. Then when crew asks me to switch it off, I refuse, and when they ask me to disembark, I refuse, as it's a commercial issue, not safety or ops. It seems like a slippery slope.

Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wonder if there's going to be a market developing for services that look like current services, but actually cost money somehow. Probably a billion-dollar-level opportunity for figuring out how to charge for a Facebook or Google or Twitter a couple of bucks a month. You're really overestimating people's willingness to pay for a service that's already free and convenient. There's really no good comp for tens of mil…

There are tons of alternative social networks to Facebook, I run several of them. People are more than happy to pay a few $$ a month to not be tracked, censored or advertised at. Even completely free you can be profitable just selling 'credits' to send e-gifts etc. Facebook is functionally crippled, they still don't even have a dislike button.

> Facebook is functionally crippled, they still don't even have a dislike button.

A lack of a dislike button is functionally crippled? Please stop with the hyperbole. They have reasons for this and have rolled out other reaction types a while ago, and all of this is a miniscule amount of the functionality they offer to billions of people.

Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#349
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Customers will only tolerate it for so long, think of it as an opportunity.

Customers have been clamoring for more control over Twitter's moderation functionality since the 2016 US Presidential elections and they got it. To be more clear, Twitter's customers are corporations and special interest's groups, not regular non-paying end-users.

Cant sell ads for a non existent audience, see twitters stock price for proof.

Re: Twitter allegedly deleting negative tweets about United Airlines incident

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the same camp until I personally witnessed administrative-level collusion to block certain topics on Reddit. I observed the entire event, from the initial breaking story, to its meteoric amplification, and finally to the censorship and aftermath. I didn't believe it was possible, or that such things were happening, until I saw it happen for myself. Since then, I have seen it happen many times on various plat…

I don't see why this comment was killed. The comment does seem to be relevant to the broader discussion, and it isn't aggressive or hostile in tone. I don't fully agree with all parts of it, but it should be allowed to stand in the conversation.

I believe they shadowbanned me for that comment. Can you see this one?
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