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Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

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Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#341
post #336
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no clue what Otto is, never heard of that brand. As far as I'm concerned its a first name. However, you getting laughed at saying: > That said, Google is a software company ..is because Google is not primarily a software company. Google is first and foremost an advertising (or 'profiling') company which uses whatever tool (software, hardware, service, complete stack) at their disposal to increase profit derive…

Google is indeed a software company the same reason why the "big 4" firms are considering accounting firms. All the big 4 accounting firms have HR, legal, PR people, in addition accountants but the reason why they are called accounting firms is because accountants dominate their hiring. In other words, accountants make up the bulk of the people in their revenue centers. Same with Google: they hire a lot of software e…

> Same with Google: they hire a lot of software engineers that contribute directly to their revenue.

(I know nothing about accounting, so can't comment on that.)

Yes, in that sense it is true.

In the sense of the end product (software licenses not being the primary source of income), and the way profit is gained (advertising), it is untrue.

I guess it depends on perspective.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#342
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it the other way around, why not care? In NYC Juno is no more expensive than Uber (in fact there's a promo rate on right now), so if I have the option, why wouldn't I choose the option that does best by the person driving me around in their car? Even if I were entirely selfish it wouldn't be in my interests for them to be stressed and rushing to cram in as many jobs as they can.

Juno has a substantially smaller driver pool. Whenever I get a ride, I always check all 3 and Juno is almost always much further out.

>Whenever I get a ride, I always check all 3

This is why I don't get why Uber tries to "undercut competitors". Even if they succeed, the second it stops bleeding money and raises prices competition will reappear. It's not like it is hard to install another app.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Evade local regulations Could you share some specific information to substantiate this? I frequently hear this statement on Hacker News, and (as far as I can recall), every time I've asked for a source or evidence for the claim, I have not gotten a satisfactory answer. Black car services where you arrange pickup with a specific driver ahead of time have always been regulated differently than taxis. Uber has cars…

Your position then is that ubers (the ones most of us use) are not actually taxis? How do you define 'taxi'?

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If someone wants to claim that Uber is breaking the law or has broken the law, then it should be relatively simple to explain what that law is and provide some evidence that it's been broken.

I'm not looking for flawless proof, suitable for a court of law, just some kind of cogent allegation of what happened and what law was broken would suffice. These kind of vague claims about Uber breaking the law do nobody any good; they are middlebrow mud slinging.

Here is an example of what a cogent allegation might look like: "Zenefits broke the law by allowing salespeople to act as insurance brokers in seven states despite lacking the licenses to do so." [1]

Has Uber broken the law? Who knows? There have certainly been accusations that Uber tried to sabotage competitors by placing fake rides, for example. I am not trying to make any kind of moral claim about Uber, so please do not misunderstand. I am simply to hear the evidence from people who make comments like "Uber evades local regulation".

From my casual research into the matter, no, black car services or any kind of private, pre-arranged transportation for hire are not considered taxis in most municipalities. Uber actually offers taxis in certain places through UberTAXI [2]. The key difference seems to be whether the trip is arranged ahead of time through an existing business relationship, versus whether it might be solicited or formed directly on the street at the beginning of the ride. This seems to be how law works in most places in the USA, anyway. If you know of examples of municipal law where it works differently, I'd be glad to hear the details.

[1] https://www.buzzfeed.com/williamalden/zenefits-under-scrutin...

[2] https://www.uber.com/ride/ubertaxi/

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#344
post #167

Uber will be a dead Unicorn in the medium future. They've got too many legal pressures, competitors with native advantages (i.e. the automakers), and their expansion plans have them overextended. Here in Edmonton, AB, Canada, regulatory changes have pushed the Uber prices to almost 2x during non-surge times over regular taxis. Taxi's have stepped up. Local competitors have sprouted. Carshares are abounding. It's all…

"""The Uber model has no barrier to entry"""

I don't know how many potential competitors are willing to blatantly ignore existing laws (I guess this is the mythical ethics barrier). Ability to raise money given there's Uber (and Lyft etc.) is also a strong barrier since the model only works with massive VC money to keep cost artificially low. Brand recognition is another one.

At the end of the day Uber seems to prefer the classical (as in 5 forces) cost leadership strategy, currently powered by VC funding. Which means long term the play has to be autonomous vehicles. Since the chain of operations requires vehicles in some way I agree with the many posters in this thread who have said their real competition will be the Teslas of the world. Which would worry me a great deal as an investor. I think they should push to IPO quickly while joe doe still thinks yeah Uber sure I use them every now and then take my moneyz (if that's ethical...I won't judge).

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#345
post #167

Uber will be a dead Unicorn in the medium future. They've got too many legal pressures, competitors with native advantages (i.e. the automakers), and their expansion plans have them overextended. Here in Edmonton, AB, Canada, regulatory changes have pushed the Uber prices to almost 2x during non-surge times over regular taxis. Taxi's have stepped up. Local competitors have sprouted. Carshares are abounding. It's all…

In Russia Uber will definitely die from the competition. Not only many Taxi companies have good apps today and offer better services (and licensed cars allowed to use bus lanes), but there are strong competitors with similar business model (Yandex, Gett, Maxim etc etc), which are better represented in regions. The only good thing it has done, it helped to lower prices in Moscow, but I'm not sure if it's really a good thing - you must be very desperate to become Uber driver here today.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#346
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

conversely uber is much cheaper in uk and sydney, compared to taxis. Much more convenient, and no competitors.

There are competitors in the UK, Addison Lee and Hailo to just mention two. Plus some taxi companies make their own apps.

Hailo is still metered fares IIRC. Gett, however gets you a Black Cab quote, I think.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what exact benefit does running a $800M losing ride-hailing service confer Market share. Or more precisely, establishing market dominance by undercutting the competition.

It's an app. If competitor X beats them to the self-driving-punch, I'll simply install their app and start saving. A first-to-market competitor will have 747s full of money landing on their doorstep begging them to take it. There is simply no scenario where having a network of poorly paid drivers, their heterogeneous fleet of unmaintained cars and a load of debt is an advantage in a rollout of self-driving cars, the…

> If competitor X beats them to the self-driving-punch, I'll simply install their app and start saving.

And Uber couldn't double down on their existing strategy of heavily subsidised rides to undercut self-driving cars? I mean, this is assuming that self-driving taxis are cheaper off the bat, which kind of ignores the fairly large capital expenditure of buying a fleet.

> A first-to-market competitor will have 747s full of money landing on their doorstep begging them to take it.

I don't think it's that simple. That's not taking into account how difficult it would be for Competitor X to build enough of a network to rival Uber, and how easy it would be for Uber to replicate/steal/buy the tech and steamroll Competitor X. Having superior tech and being first to market are not enough alone to trump market share.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#348

Uber is making the rest of us in SV look terrible. 1. Collect a huge pile of money at sky-high valuations from those who really should know better. 2. Ignore any sensible unit economics and undercut local taxi/transport services until those small businesses go bankrupt since they don't have Uber's money pile. 3. Evade local regulations that everyone else follows in the name of 'innovation' even though the reality is…

The endgame is a monopoly, at which point they raise prices to the monopolist profit maximising level and extract those sweet sweet rents from consumers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing

This practice is illegal in many countries. Legalities and ethics aside (it's easier to discuss this in 'value neutral' terms), the strategy only works if you've got a bigger bankroll than your competitors (i.e. they go bankrupt before you do). By the sounds of it, Uber have a pretty big bankroll thanks to VC funding?

[Value Free Zone]

Also, they're going about it in a fairly clever way. It's almost like a market version of the 'blitzkrieg' strategy. By progressively moving through one localised market to the next, it's essentially Uber's bankroll vs. whatever the largest local market incumbent can muster. In addition, they're ignoring regulations because it further lowers their costs.

And here's the blitzkrieg part: when they encounter a market (e.g. Austin) with particularly strong regulators or incumbents with larger than usual bankrolls, they bypass it (for the moment), just as the Nazi's did if they encountered heavily fortified positions on the Maginot line. They'll just bypass and move on to softer targets.

I imagine once those are monopolised, and they've replenished their bankroll by charging monopoly prices where they can, they'll come back for the more 'fortified markets'. Except this time they'll:

- Have a bigger bank roll

- Have a constant stream of cash rolling in from their monopolised markets

- Possibly have a more favourable regulatory environment due to 'lobbying' (i.e. political 'donations')

Given the position they will be in by the time they swing back to the 'holdouts', they may not even see the need to flaunt local regulations to crush their competition.

[/Value Free Zone]

Personally, and assuming I'm right, it's pretty despicable behaviour. It's not innovative; it's illegal. And it's not 'disruptive' either; it's destructive and exploitative. I wouldn't deny these guys are smart, but so were most 'robber-barons' throughout US history. If 'hacker culture' is synonymous with 'destroy all who might oppose us, then turn around and screw consumers', then yeah, they're hackers (and I most certainly am not).

But if SV gives a fig about its reputation, and believes that hackers can 'break the rules' while maintaining some shred of personal integrity, then I wouldn't be so keen to hitch my wagon to the likes of Uber.

Note: I have no stake in this one way or the other. Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the traditional taxi industry in my country; they're essentially a government protected oligopoly and a bunch of rent-seekers to boot. Just calling it like I see it.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#349
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I was reading this, I just got a text message from Uber promoting a new offer - Just Rs. 100 for any trip of 15km or less between 12pm to 4pm. Rs. 100 works out to under $1.5. Or effectively, $0.10/km if you take a 15km trip. How the hell is that ever going to be profitable?

It's introducing people to the service and acquiring market. Better prices come later.

Sounds like Groupon all over again.

Re: Uber's Loss Exceeds $800M in Q3 on $1.7B in Net Revenue

#350
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I was reading this, I just got a text message from Uber promoting a new offer - Just Rs. 100 for any trip of 15km or less between 12pm to 4pm. Rs. 100 works out to under $1.5. Or effectively, $0.10/km if you take a 15km trip. How the hell is that ever going to be profitable?

It's introducing people to the service and acquiring market. Better prices come later.

>It's introducing people to the service and acquiring market. Better prices come later.

You say this as if 75% of the reason people take Uber isn't price, and that one day Uber will simply be able to jack up all their prices and make money. Demand doesn't work that way.

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