U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#341

Post by JulianMorrison » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:34 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #274

JulianMorrison wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

If we have basic income, why do we need to be educated at all? Just stay home and live minimally.

People like to learn things, if the desire hasn't been regimented out of them and their energy drained to the dregs.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#342

Post by jazzyk » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:36 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #314

jazzyk wrote: post #301

This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. While the idea of helping people become more educated is obviously beneficial to both individuals and the society as a whole, government loans - which are supposed to "help" - are a huge factor fueling ever-raising costs. The loans, in effect, subsidize the higher-education complex, rather than students. Many of us have been brainwashed to think that high…

I see this sentiment a lot, and I feel like you fundamentally misunderstand what is actually happening at universities. Discounting athletics, which in some places are revenue neutral and can be counted as marketing/local cultural artifact depending on who you talk to, the "wise passionate teachers" you praise so aren't there to teach idiot undergrads. Instead, they're hired to do research with the teaching as essent…

>you fundamentally misunderstand what is actually happening at universities

What is actually happening is that in many cases "researchers" chase fame and money, not academic excellence. They have no time to teach "idiot undergrads", as you nicely put it, because they are busy running their consultancies on the side. [I am in Boston, I see a lot of this first-hand, in "elite" schools in particular]

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

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Post by wonder_er » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #327

digler999 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the school's way of competing for the piles of grant money replacement known as undergrads. I say it's a consequence of their windfall profits from 3-5% yearly tuition increases. Most institutions have "use-it-or-lose-it" budgets. Their accountants can only be so clever in finding ways to spend it, lest it pile up and get released on a state budget report. Then everyone would scream "Why does UXY have a $50mil surp…

If they wanted to actually compete, they would lower prices. Thats what attracts buyers. That is a dangerously oversimplified view of how markets work. Buyers are attracted by a broad range of factors, only one of which is price.

> That is a dangerously oversimplified view of how markets work.

Because university is so expensive, we're told that more things matter than just price.

Buyers are obviously attracted to more than low prices, but some buyers are highly price-sensitive. So, we should let them find something that works for them.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

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Post by cloverich » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #228

chrisseaton wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they would get hired anyway. As I said, their companies value diverse academic backgrounds. Not no academic background. Let's look at some real jobs, outside the technology industry. The UK civil service: "you need, or expect to have, a 2:2 degree in any subject or higher". UK NHS project management role just requires "a degree" (the NHS is one of the biggest employers in the world). Goldman Sachs gradu…

I’m not saying you’re not right, I just think it’s ridiculous. I've met plenty of people with various degrees (BS, MS, Phd) who are stupid as a rock, and I’ve met plenty without a degree who are well rounded individuals / smart as hell / can get the job done. That’s even outside of tech. In the end it really comes down to the individual. Also, as an ability metric it’s an outdated one, and personally I would never pa…

> Most people just can't get stuff done.

I know this is tangential, but after working in engineering for the last 6 years its absolutely mind blowing how much this is a factor. Smart, likable, normal people who just never get any real, meaningful work done seems to be the complete norm. Hiring people (not a position i'm presently in) is an absolutely terrifying prospect to me, because I can't figure out any real way to separate the former from the latter.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#345

Post by cmdrfred » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:48 PM UTC

awinder wrote: post #278

zaroth wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't apologize for personal attacks, just refrain from them. Any argument made by starting with calling someone rude or accusing them of having a superiority complex, can only be made better by instead empathizing with rather than dismissing opposing viewpoints. What's even worse is patronizing a mis-characterization of someone's statement. > I roughly divide human activities into jobs and hobbies. This indeed is a…

Telling someone that their humanities education was all a hobby is a much greater insult than calling someone out, so I'll let the universe sort out who was the true meanie-head here lmao.

If humanities are so valuable, why aren't they valuable?

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

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Post by jazzyk » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:51 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #332

snarf21 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add to that students have "suites" with private bedrooms and shared living space. Add to that meal plans with all you can eat Nutella and endless options. That money has to come from somewhere. It used to be old buildings with one block wall room with a set of bunks and two crappy desks. It has become an arms race and the parents have helped this along by indulging their kids. A lot of this debt is the parents paying…

And yet, in order to finance the construction of fancy student dorms, many universities require unmarried undergraduates to live in a dorm. Speaking as a commuter in my student years, this boggles my mind. Of course, any concerns about cost are dismissed by the big handwave of 'well, financial aid is available...'

I agree with you, but I also think living on campus has at least one big advantage - promotes exchange of ideas and discussion with fellow students.

Think about it as Aristotle's Lyceum/Gardens ;-)

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#347

Post by coredog64 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #301

This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. While the idea of helping people become more educated is obviously beneficial to both individuals and the society as a whole, government loans - which are supposed to "help" - are a huge factor fueling ever-raising costs. The loans, in effect, subsidize the higher-education complex, rather than students. Many of us have been brainwashed to think that high…

Alabama pays Nick Saban almost $7M/year. At first blush that seems outrageous. Then we find out that Alabama pulls in nearly $100M/year from football [0]. While not every school is so lucky, most (if not all) that are spending 7 figures on a coach are getting that money back and then some.

[0] http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbelzer/2016/02/24/the-unive...

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#348

Post by nickik » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 4:57 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #279

nickik wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its actually not ridiculous at all. There is a lot of study on the idea that the main value of education is not what you actually learn but much more signal that you are dedicated, motivated and have the ability to learn. There is a huge argument going on right now about how much of the value is signal vs actual knowledge you need for the job. There is a lot of evidence that suggest that signal is a huge part of the…

> There is a lot of study on the idea that the main value of education is not what you actually learn but much more signal that you are dedicated, motivated and have the ability to learn. A signal, I can agree with that. But isn't that only because someone is unable to signal that (s)he can be a valuable asset in other ways? The type of person to only rely on their degree is probably a person that isn't creative enou…

I basically agree with you, but there is just a lot of people that don't. In IT you can get pretty far, without a degree. I did so, and I am very happy with that choice.

I don't see that working for a lot of other people I know.

I think the US is approaching numbers where you might really be better of without a degree in a increasing number of fields.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#349

Post by jazzyk » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

coredog64 wrote: post #347

jazzyk wrote: post #301

This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. While the idea of helping people become more educated is obviously beneficial to both individuals and the society as a whole, government loans - which are supposed to "help" - are a huge factor fueling ever-raising costs. The loans, in effect, subsidize the higher-education complex, rather than students. Many of us have been brainwashed to think that high…

Alabama pays Nick Saban almost $7M/year. At first blush that seems outrageous. Then we find out that Alabama pulls in nearly $100M/year from football [0]. While not every school is so lucky, most (if not all) that are spending 7 figures on a coach are getting that money back and then some. [0] http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbelzer/2016/02/24/the-unive...

Yes, but they are in the wrong business, then. it is a sports business - what does it have to do with academia?

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

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Post by tim333 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

digler999 wrote: post #319

jimmywanger wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it need not: all that great education requires are wise, passionate teachers and a bit of infrastructure: a whiteboard, a few books, and a laptop computer (with a couple of outliers). It's funny that a lot of the outliers are the degrees that can actually help you with financial stability later. Universities love humanity courses, exactly for the reasons you point out. It's easy to shoehorn a couple more underg…

> For a computer science lab, you need some heavy iron if you're going to be doing heavy algorithms Not for 200 undergrads learning how to bubblesort. For that you need a lab with 50-100 PC's. For grad courses in parallel comp. or AI, you might need a semi-expensive cluster to play around with, but if you want something that just works you could just buy cluster time on AWS, which I'm sure they'd give a discounted ac…

Indeed there seem few disciplines where you really need much equipment for bachelor's degree study. Even in science where it's nice to be able to do stuff in labs, really you can learn pretty much all of it from books.