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Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

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341–350 of 413 posts

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a much slower rate. If the paint in my personal home starts peeling, my incentive to fix it is higher - I don't want to walk down the hall and see peeling paint. If the paint in a corporate-owned tenement starts leaking, what incentive does the corporation have to repair it? They will do the bare minimum to prevent me suing them for breach of contract. A tenant is unlikely to sue over peeling paint. And they activ…

> If the paint in my personal home starts peeling, my incentive to fix it is higher - I don't want to walk down the hall and see peeling paint. > If the paint in a corporate-owned tenement starts leaking LOL. It's the opposite effect. If I own the place, and The paint is peeling, and I have to fix it... then maybe I'll just live with it until it gets worse, or I plan to sell. If it was a rental, then I complain to th…

Are you married? Own a house? ;)

What incentive does the landlord have to fix minor problems? It costs you more to move/sue than it costs him to sit on the problem.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the PoV of someone who once co-owned a small business in Germany that accepted card payments: The reason they are "evil" is that they charge the dealer the by far largest fees. Cache: no fee. EC card: small fee. Credit card: large fee. And of course I can't ask the customer to pay for it, I must have one price for all. It was something like 1% vs. 3% (approximately(!), just to give an idea of magnitude). It's no…

That's really intriguing. The fees you're describing are the same in Australia (2.9% on AmEx) and don't seem particularly evil at all. A few stores do charge a credit card surcharge here, but the majority of retailers don't anymore. As a near-annual visitor to Germany, it drives me nuts that I can't use my Australian credit card everywhere (especially at Saturn). I would LOVE to have an EC card, but it seems there's…

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Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Cash: no fee Because it just magically transfers from your register to your bank account? :) >It was something like 1% vs. 3% (approximately(!), just to give an idea of magnitude). I know, but by now it is down to 0.9% for most retailers so not accepting credit cards is always an interesting decision. >most credit cards cost a yearly fee of 20-70 Euros or so When you get a card to collect airline miles or get the ca…

My bank card in Slovenia is contactless. This has nothing to do with it being a credit card or not, although some bank only offer contactless credit cards.

I am aware of that, but the biggest German banks only use their own scheme instead of Visa/MasterCard which doesn't support contactless at the moment.

Visa/MasterCard debits are extremely rare in Germany.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really intriguing. The fees you're describing are the same in Australia (2.9% on AmEx) and don't seem particularly evil at all. A few stores do charge a credit card surcharge here, but the majority of retailers don't anymore. As a near-annual visitor to Germany, it drives me nuts that I can't use my Australian credit card everywhere (especially at Saturn). I would LOVE to have an EC card, but it seems there's…

In the Netherlands it's something like 2.8% for credit cards and a ~0.05 euro flat fee per transaction for EC cards. Huge difference.

For the average German retailer it's around:

0.23% EC

0.5% Maestro/VPay/MasterCard Debit/Visa Debit

0.8% MasterCard Credit/Visa Credit

2.5% Amex

But of course that depends on the size and the negotiation skills of the retailer. I'm always envy when visiting the Netherlands, "PINNEN ja graag" signs everywhere :)

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#345
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a landlord sucks, you don't know what you are talking about. Tenants are terrible for wear and tear on your house. Since they don't own the house they don't treat it with care. Lots of maintenance and tenant problems that need solving.

I have friends in some of the rental neighborhoods in my locale. How do tenants destroy the outside of houses, make roofs leak, or fail to turn on the heat?

oh I have some experience with this. The answer is a marijuana grow op - it was my dads place but I don't believe we were ever compensated after the police raid...

Bad tenants are probably over represented in the rental pool since they're looking for a new place all the time.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#346
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So instead of spending time with the family, friends, and hobbies you'd rather slave away in front of a stove to save $600/mo?

So you'd rather spend all your time in the evenings transiting to a restaurant, waiting around for a table, waiting around for your order to arrive, getting hurried by the server so they can get a new customer in, then transiting back home? Eating out at a nice sit-down restaurant takes a huge amount of time. I can cook myself a meal at home and eat it in much less time than going out. The only way it's faster to eat…

What do you do with your old oil?

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#347
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an unproductive investment (property) Why is property unproductive? It produces accommodation, doesn't it?

Investing in land doesn't make more land. Rising land values don't even produce taller buildings, since zoning and neighbors work to preserve the character of neighborhoods. Investing in manufacturing companies makes more factories.

Rising land values don't produce taller buildings when landowners don't feel the pain of rising land values (see: Prop 13).

A very efficient tax is the land value tax: by untaxing the improvements on land and taxing the land values more heavily, you incentivize efficiency.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#348
post #5

So in Germany, the interest on a mortgage is non tax deductible. The article doesn't mention it but I understand that property owners are also liable for capital gain tax if they hold the property less than 10 years. I think that makes sense. There is no reason to favor individuals investing into an unproductive investment (property) over productive investments (stocks and bonds, which enable companies to raise money…

> There is no reason to favor individuals investing into an unproductive investment (property) over productive investments (stocks and bonds). I beg to differ. I think that real estate, like farming, has critical societal benefits that are worthwhile to develop and maintain. Namely, it is very difficult to raise a family of four in a mutual fund. Investing in a home may is absolutely "productive." See, there are sign…

> 1. A paid off home is a social safety net against homelessness for an entire family and many of their social circles. Even if all of them are unemployed, all of them have a roof over their heads.

The state provides this safety net in Germany. When both my parents were unemployed, we didn't have to move out of our apartment. The unemployment benefits were enough to pay the rent.

> 2. A paid-off home frees up cash flow. It allows the owner to divert his earnings into other activities or investments or reduce the amount he has to earn monthly.

Having to pay off a home binds cash flow at first, compared to renting.

> 3. Real estate can be borrowed against. Try that with stocks. If you are an entrepreneur, your home is likely the asset you will use to acquire bank financing for your business.

Can you borrow against a house you have not paid off yet? I think you shouldn't be able to, since the house is already a security for your mortgage. If you use your money to buy a house and then borrow to start a business, that seems horribly inefficient to me.

> 4. With unskilled / low-skilled jobs vanishing left and right, homebuilding is one of the few markets which still relies entirely on a giant low-skilled workforce. It's one of the few sectors that can keep a lot of people productively employed. I think there are valid arguments against stimulating homebuilding to reduce unemployment among low-skill workers, but there is nevertheless a societal logic here.

Houses are still being built when everyone rents, they are just large apartment complexes. In Germany, the low-skilled workers you are concerned about are mostly immigrants from poorer countries in Europe, they would move somewhere else if the housing industry stopped employing them.

> 5. In a time when wealth is centralizing as never before, investments in real estate distributes wealth locally. I think there are valid arguments against public policy to distribute wealth, but there is a societal logic here.

In Germany, the state distributes wealth directly. (see 1.)

> 6. Finally: taxing a home is very counterproductive to the well-being of the middle class and the poor. I'm sure in Germany the interest on a mortgage isn't tax deductible as you say, but I'd also guess that steps are taken to refund the property taxes for the lower classes. Otherwise you simply tax the poor out of their homes - a form of confiscation.

You are assuming the poor own their homes to begin with, this is not usually the case in Germany

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#349
post #5

So in Germany, the interest on a mortgage is non tax deductible. The article doesn't mention it but I understand that property owners are also liable for capital gain tax if they hold the property less than 10 years. I think that makes sense. There is no reason to favor individuals investing into an unproductive investment (property) over productive investments (stocks and bonds, which enable companies to raise money…

The thing is, interest on loans is tax-deductible for businesses (in the US, but I expect more broadly too), like any other business expense. So people may just set up shell corporations to buy the house and get the deduction anyway.

Of course then the capital gains tax treatment would be rather different.

Re: Most Germans don’t buy their homes, they rent

#350
post #188
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have savings and investment you could use to cover a lower rent the rainy days. House prices are only high because everyone is over-bidding to buy them. And that's driving rents up. Now this is different to the question of whether you should individually follow the crowd in a country where everyone over-bids on property. If you don't, you still pay a high rent to repay the massive mortgage of the guy who bo…

Why is there room for rents to go up? Why aren't they in general already around the maximum the market will bear?

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