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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#341

Post by disordinary »

Retr0spectrum wrote: post #335
disordinary wrote: post #309

The average age of someone who is voting to leave is above 60, the average age of someone who is voting to stay is below 35. The older generation have voted for something that the younger generation did not want but are now stuck with. They have voted away their future for short term gains. The sooner the baby boomers are all retired the better.

They still vote when they're retired.

Of course they do, but if the politicians have retired then no one is pushing their selfish and short sighted conservative agenda.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#342

Post by zghst »

paganel wrote: post #304
beninvalencia wrote: post #122

As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently). Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unpr…

> The scaremongering goes on even after the vote has been called... The terms are simple: You can't have free movement of goods without the equally free movement of people. As long as people in the UK are ok with the free movement of people (even though the fight against it was a big part of the "Leave" campaign) then I would see no reason why us, the rest of the EU people, should impede the UK products' access to th…

China ships tons of products to the US, however the freedom of movement between the two nations are comparatively low compared to the EU.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#343

Post by 99_00 »

paganel wrote: post #304
beninvalencia wrote: post #122

As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently). Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unpr…

> The scaremongering goes on even after the vote has been called... The terms are simple: You can't have free movement of goods without the equally free movement of people. As long as people in the UK are ok with the free movement of people (even though the fight against it was a big part of the "Leave" campaign) then I would see no reason why us, the rest of the EU people, should impede the UK products' access to th…

>You can't have free movement of goods without the equally free movement of people.

Why not? Other countries have free trade without the free movement of people.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#344

Post by oldmanjay »

paganel wrote: post #304
beninvalencia wrote: post #122

As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently). Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unpr…

> The scaremongering goes on even after the vote has been called... The terms are simple: You can't have free movement of goods without the equally free movement of people. As long as people in the UK are ok with the free movement of people (even though the fight against it was a big part of the "Leave" campaign) then I would see no reason why us, the rest of the EU people, should impede the UK products' access to th…

I feel like you have to be a lot more explicit about the connection between your statements. You word things as though one implies the other but they seem independent to my eye, and the independence belies your point

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#345

Post by danmaz74 »

bontoJR wrote: post #287
darawk wrote: post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

Because it's unknown and it's actually the same points that have been brought when Switzerland decided to stay outside. The arguments were: - We are going to be isolated - Our economy will crash - We will struggle to find high educated people - We will just disappear Now, after almost 25 years we can't say we did the wrong thing, but hey, UK is not Switzerland, it's a totally different economy which different proport…

But basically Switzerland is accepting lots of EU regulations - including free movement of people - in exchange for free trade. Accepting those regulations is exactly what the brexiters don't want. So, I doubt this will end up well.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#346

Post by ptaipale »

paganel wrote: post #304
beninvalencia wrote: post #122

As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently). Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unpr…

> The scaremongering goes on even after the vote has been called... The terms are simple: You can't have free movement of goods without the equally free movement of people. As long as people in the UK are ok with the free movement of people (even though the fight against it was a big part of the "Leave" campaign) then I would see no reason why us, the rest of the EU people, should impede the UK products' access to th…

>The terms are simple: You can't have free movement of goods without the equally free movement of people.

Why not? No movement is absolutely "free" of course, but we get lots of goods from (e.g.) China, while it is not that easy to immigrate into China. There are many big trading nations that are not at all that free about moving into them (for instance, Singapore).

The people in UK seems to think that their island is rather full. Those of us in the remaining EU need to reassess the idea to push deeper and deeper political integration towards a federal wannabe-superpower.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#348

Post by hartator »

sho_hn wrote: post #305
darawk wrote: post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

But how well does the UK do on democracy: Scottland and Northern Ireland will be removed from the EU against their will, by a narrow majority mostly built in Northern England. How does that actually get people a government closer to them? It seems much more sensible to remove the useless middle layer (i.e. the UK) and for everyone to collaborate in the EU. The EU being anti-democratic sounds like a case of "citation…

We still don't vote for the executive branch.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#349

Post by ohthehugemanate »

ekianjo wrote: post #18
lossolo wrote: post #5

Unfortunately nationalism and populism won another war. Now watch Scotland make referendum to leave UK and after leaving they will join EU.

To be frank the EU was built on power centralization and socialism as key principles. It's been what, 15 years+ since the Eurozone and the Economy is still doing as bad as before, if not worse for most member states. Hardly a success model by ANY measure.

I'm sorry to directly contradict you, but that's just factually untrue.

The EU was built on an explicit policy of focus on small treaties, and avoiding creating transnational institutions. This was specifically to ensure that member states kept as much sovereignty as possible. It's why even the largest EU institutions are generally incomplete and only operate with the ongoing cooperation of all the member states. Hence monetary union without fiscal union. Hence the lack of police and military cooperation. Hence no central border or immigration control. These are key functions of government, which the EU has never been able to centralize because of the practice of "small steps."

Its the way the US was supposed to work, only with even less power in the federal government. European federalism is free trade attached to a foreign policy body and a supranational court.

The EU is more than 50 years old, not 15. it was established as a free trade zone first, to "make war unthinkable and materially impossible" - in 1958. That's the core of the EU, and it works very well for the members by every material measure. I don't know what makes you think otherwise. The recession has created a growing movement of Euroskepticism, but that's associated with the extreme political right wing, and remains a minority - outside of Britain, it seems.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#350

Post by chatmasta »

thewarrior wrote: post #242
martythemaniak wrote: post #13

Is Scotland going to be exiting the UK next? Guess we'll see in a few years. Hard to know what will happen here, but I suspect once the UK (or what's left of it) signs a trade deal with the EU, they'll get the same deal as Norway - all the compliance with EU regulations, with none of the say. I suppose people may be happy with that deal, as long as they can get to say they're "free". I'm hoping this somehow leave the…

I feel that the growth of Fascist sentiment worldwide can't possibly be a coincidence. Globalisation and it's benefits are being questioned. People are disappointed. Even this vote , is actually a vote of dissatisfaction against the status quo. They just managed to direct enough of that anger against the EU. I'd like to suggest the following three hypotheses and hear what you guys think : 1. As growth slows , liberal…

I agree with you 100%. What's sad is that airing sentiments like yours is now considered anti-status quo, and therefore invalid. I suspect much of the positive polling for so called "fascist" candidates stems from dissatisfaction with that same status quo that invalidates these arguments.

I especially agree with your #2, but I warn most people will disagree. It's so foolish to think the Internet does not mean anything. I'm so disappointed when I travel somewhere and people mock my desire to secure a SIM card as quickly as possible. Why is it so frowned upon to connect to the Internet?

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