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SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

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Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#341

Post by VonGuard »

Spooky23 wrote: post #330
themartorana wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services. So what's the political argument against it?

"Homeless first" undermines the normal eligibility cycle for public housing. It also destroys the communities in these developments. If you find a man screaming obscenities while taking a dump on the sidewalk distasteful, I'll assure you that the people who get stuck living next to him share your reaction -- except they can't walk away. So you pack housing developments with addicts, crazy people and criminals. Next s…

Also, I would be REALLY pissed if I lived in a town where I had to struggle to make rent on a place I don't own every month, and the city is giving away free permanent houses to folks who don't have jobs or pay rent... I mean, I want homeless people to have homes, but if they're getting one for free and the economy continues to have housing prices way out of the reach of someone like me, I would be fucking pissed.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#342

Post by ktRolster »

curun1r wrote: post #281
ktRolster wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so long as they were bussed somewhere he didn't have to gaze upon their poor faces. Lucky him, San Francisco offers one way bus tickets to anywhere for homeless people: http://www.ibtimes.com/homeless-bus-ticket-programs-across-n...

If you read your article, SF only offers tickets to people to return home. They're not trying to get rid of people who grew up here. This speaks to how much of SF's homeless problem stems from being a homeless destination. If you're homeless in a part of the country that is less accommodating, both politically and climatically, you come to SF. Based on your article, it seems that a lot of places will even buy you the…

  > If you read your article, SF only offers tickets to people to return home.
They offer tickets if someone will take care of the homeless person. In practice, we see homeless refugees from San Francisco showing up in Turlock and Modesto, given free tickets, and still being homeless just in a different place.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#343

Post by monknomo »

hluska wrote: post #329
themartorana wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services. So what's the political argument against it?

The political argument against HF comes down to the fact that it may not actually work very well. People opposed to HF tend to argue: 1.) HF is not effective at keeping recipients out of the criminal justice system. (This finding is controversial as, especially in Canada, 2-3 years often go by between arrest and subsequent criminal punishment.) 2.) HF creates 'slums'. (This finding is controversial as the solution is…

As to point 2, if there are enough homeless people in an area to turn an apartment building into a slum, there is already a de facto slum. It's just that it's a slum made of tents under a highway, rather than in a building.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#344

Post by vox_mollis »

kauffj wrote: post #55

It's ironic that Keller will get so much shit dumped on him for making the same exact argument that people make against more permissive immigration. Compare: A : Allowing people trapped in unproductive countries to move to US/Canada/Europe would significantly improve their quality of life. B : But think of burden to the welfare state! We wouldn't be able to afford the flood of people moving here for benefits. A : Sim…

It's ironic that Keller will get so much shit dumped on him for making the same exact argument that people make against more permissive immigration.

This is simply untrue. You'll find that those of us opposed to open borders keep our mouths shut specifically because our opinions make us persona non grata with our peers.

Make no mistake, pro-border-control people are extremely persecuted and marginalized anywhere in the coastal US, just as much as the author of this piece.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#345

Post by curun1r »

jimmytucson wrote: post #149
Afforess wrote: post #9

To play devil's advocate, he's right. He shouldn't have to see the pain, struggle, and despair of homeless - the city government should be providing affordable housing and shelters for the homeless. That it hasn't is a failure of the local government, and should be addressed. Much of the reason that affordable housing is out of reach of many in San Francisco is due to government regulation, not market capitalism. Ext…

> To play devil's advocate, he's right. You're not really agreeing with him though, are you? He's saying homeless people are an eyesore. You're saying the government should create more homeless shelters. I don't think you guys are even on the same planet in terms of your views.

The thing that people are missing is how much dealing with this on a day-to-day basis changes you. You can't walk past/through that much human misery without hardening your heart towards it. My commute to work for the past 4 years has taken me through the 6th st corridor. I walk past homeless people, SRO hotels and what I believe is a methadone clinic. People in wheelchairs with diabetic amputations are disturbingly common. And even those with all their limbs seem broken physically in a way that means they'll never be productive members of society, even if they could get past the mental illness/drugs. Any money spent on them is simply softening their descent into death rather than helping them live.

At first, you feel bad for these people. But, over time, it changes you and you stop feeling as much empathy towards them. They're the people yelling at 3am in the morning that make you tired at work the next day. They're the people shitting on the sidewalk and forcing you to jump around it or walk in the street. They're the people leaving uncapped needles on the sidewalks.

And add to this that the situation has gotten significantly worse lately. SF is a powder keg ready to explode. There are two SFs living in close proximity to each other and both headed in opposite directions. As the one SF has gotten richer and the other has gotten poorer and evictions have increased, there's a general feeling of combativeness that's very scary. It's common for people to try to intimidate me on the sidewalks as I walk to work. They stare at me and walk directly at me no matter which side of the sidewalk I attempt to walk on. My projection is that there's a message being delivered..."you may have everything else, but I'm taking the sidewalk." Homeless people will urinate/defecate in the middle of the sidewalk in ways that make it as difficult as possible to avoid. And while it's mostly passive aggression at the moment, it feels like we're not too far off from that aggression turning active. This deeply unhealthy dynamic is why I've chosen to leave SF.

It would take an extraordinary person to be dealing with this on an everyday basis and not try to compartmentalize it in ways that appear cold and unfeeling to people viewing it from the outside. You can't understand the fear, and fear will cause people to do and say things that others would consider unconscionable. You can't understand the hopelessness of the situation that leads you to write those people off a subhuman. Out of sight is really out of mind. And anyone that isn't experiencing this problem on a daily basis isn't going to really understand this open letter. They're going to attribute the tone and callousness of the letter to the individual who wrote it rather than the experiences they've been subjected to.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#346

Post by markkat »

danjoc wrote: post #302

I just wanted to add, there are six empty homes for every homeless person in the US. http://themindunleashed.org/2014/02/18600000-vacant-homes-un... And that Detroit is/has bulldozed 20 or more square miles of empty homes. http://michiganradio.org/post/detroit-has-tons-vacant-land-f...

>And that Detroit is/has bulldozed 20 or more square miles of empty homes.

The ones they bulldoze are not fit for use.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#347

Post by monknomo »

yuudu_literal wrote: post #316
monkmartinez wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've loaded many a homeless into my fire engine to take to the local Crisis Resource Center/ Behaviour Rehabilitation center because they begged and pleaded that they want help. Great! More often than not, we see them a few days later with Steel Reserve cans littered about after someone calls 911 for what appears to them a dead man on the side of the road. Mental illness is brutal. I feel for these guys, especially a…

> I've loaded many a homeless into my fire engine Err... why? Were they on fire? Why is the fire department involved in homeless people?

The fire departments in most towns in America provide emergency medical services. 911 calls about health related things often result in a fire truck arriving, rather than an ambulance.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#348

Post by vox_mollis »

tempodox wrote: post #73

Justin Keller's own words about this seem to imply that he thinks Democracy is a state of decay in politics: http://justink.svbtle.com/open-letter-to-mayor-ed-lee-and-gr... This guy seems thoroughly unsavoury.

Plenty of intelligent people also hold that Democracy is a degenerate form of political organization. That doesn't make them "unsavoury".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#349

Post by chris_wot »

maratd wrote: post #308
jff wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because on HN it's considered poor form to say "I think you're full of shit" or "I don't like what you're saying", instead it's better to say "got a source?". It casts doubt on the truthfulness or provenance of the original poster's assertion, while still looking polite.

I'm well aware of why people do it. It's rude regardless. If you disagree with someone either use those little arrows next to the post, make a counter-argument, or STFU. Posting "you're full of shit" or "citation needed" is lazy and rude. You don't want to speak up with something more sensible? Fine. That's why those little arrows next to the comment exist. Don't post rude garbage instead.

It's rude to use [citation needed] to belittle another person. It's certainly unacceptable to tell someone they're full of shit. It's also rude to tell someone to shut the fuck up.

It's not rude to question assumptions or to ask where someone gets their data from.

The voting system is good on HN, but it's limited. If you post something controversial, but possibly accurate, then if only people who don't like what you say vote you down, then it just shows that people don't like what you say. If you write something popular but kind of dodgy, then you'll get voted up significantly - and given nobody but yourself can see your score then your comment just shows in normal font weight. Those who vote it down can get it to a score of 1, and nobody will be any the wiser.

So the vote mechanism is very good here, and very effective, but it doesn't necessarily improve discourse. Nor does it force people to justify their views. Nor does it help progress understanding.

I've often been asked to provide a source for my views. I'm always happy to do so. Heck, there have even been a few times it has forced me to concede that my view wasn't well thought out. If anything, bring politely questioned helped me more than it did the questioner. Other times there has been the pleasant and surprising occassion where the questioner thanked me for my sources and agreed that I was probably correct.

That's hardly "rude garbage".

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#350

Post by BurningFrog »

citizensixteen wrote: post #95
monkmartinez wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complex issue... but in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs and/or contribute to society in manner that will lead them out of "homelessness." A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"... we try very hard to help the people that want help. Most don't. Go talk to your local EMS/Fire department personnel and most of them will have similar stories. I know the homeless people in…

>A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle" I used to also think that many homeless "preferred the lifestyle of homelessness" but I recently learned of a town in Canada (Medicine Hat) that found it more cost effective to house the homeless. This myth that people prefer to be homeless was shattered and this town found that nearly all homeless were able to reintegrated back into having their own places. The mayor was skepti…

Your argument rests on the assumption that all homeless populations across the world are similar.

In reality, the homeless population in 2016 SF and in 2014 Medicine Hat are shaped by the specific conditions and incentives in those communities.

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