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State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

theguardian.com

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Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#341

Post by bengalister »

elros wrote: post #209

I am French and have friends and family in Paris, fortunately they are all safe. I am however in shock and can't really process much except for shedding tears. I feel the strong need to point out that in these difficult times in Europe and the world, we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE.

French too living in France, but sorry I am fed up of hearing that. Don't you think there's something wrong with Islam and its worshippers in the current days ? Not a single week without hearing about an attack made by islam integrists: Beiruth yesterday, Ankara few weeks ago. It is global, not a few crazy people, tens of thousands of them. Muslims in France have had hard time condeming the Charlie hebdo's attacks and many approved them. There's a strong tendency in the muslim communities these days to reject any Western values. If Islam was once peaceful it is not anymore.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#342

Post by sohaeb »

As a muslim lurker of this amazing site I would like to express my sympathy to those who died and hope everyone will be safe.

Also, those with comments that are trying to cause fear and hatred, you are just making other muslims living in the west feel scared and sad. I swear, right now im scared taht one day some people will be treating muslims just like how Americans used to treat black people in Slavery era. Even worse, Im afraid we might see concentration camps like how Nazis did to Jews.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#343

Post by jacquesm »

rayiner wrote: post #125

Disappointed to see the comments downplaying the situation because as many people get killed in car accidents every week or whatever. Terrorist acts damage the social fabric far beyond the death toll. That's the whole point of terrorism.

> Terrorist acts damage the social fabric far beyond the death toll. That's the whole point of terrorism.

And that's why we very much should not react by further damaging the social fabric ourselves, but that is extremely hard, especially when everybody will be clamoring for some kind of reaction.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#344

Post by suprgeek »

The French24 TV feed in English is pretty upto date http://www.france24.com/en/livefeed/

These look very much like the Mumbai attacks from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks

Basically they go after soft targets where large number of people gather (cafes, bars etc) - very hard to defend against if you have any kind of open society.

Whoever these Assholes are they deserve no mercy.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#345

Post by dragonwriter »

Fezzik wrote: post #303
elros wrote: post #209

I am French and have friends and family in Paris, fortunately they are all safe. I am however in shock and can't really process much except for shedding tears. I feel the strong need to point out that in these difficult times in Europe and the world, we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE.

While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? I would wager these people are not crazy in any clinical sense; they have been deluded by a religious upbringing and culturally supported religious fervor. It is disingenuous to say that religion is not a contributing factor, if not the primary factor. It is like Steven Weinberg summarized: With or without [religion] you would ha…

> While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious?

Not really; religious identity politics are often used by leaders (whose motivation seems to be more power-seeking than genuinely religious) to connect with foot-soldiers (whose real impetus seems often to be desperation to improve conditions for their family, or themselves, or to redress wrongs they feel have been done to their family or themselves, or to feel connected to a group and gain meaning.)

And you see the same thing done in other places with racial identity politics, economic class identity politics, national identity politics, etc. (And, in many cases, many of these are at play in the same movement.)

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#346

Post by jacquesm »

refurb wrote: post #337
pyrrhotech wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you so convinced that terrorism is not a threat to society? Lots of Romans probably thought the Huns were a laughable foe as well.

Exactly. Look at what the Shining Path did in Peru. Blow up enough people often enough and fear and panic will become pervasive. People stop opening their shops, investments stop coming. Terror is a pretty effective way to overthrow a gov't.

Algeria.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#347

Post by serge2k »

stvswn wrote: post #217
Gatsky wrote: post #9

A disaster. Obviously don't know yet who is responsible, but I don't understand why France is being targeted in this way. They are hardly terrorist enemy number one.

France jealously guards its secular republic. Separation of church and state is a top priority (well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools). The French are notably resilient in the face of intimidation (see the protests and solidarity after the Charlie Hebdo shootings). There's a lot about the French for terrorists to hate, which is worthy of admiration in my opinio…

> well above the U.S. and U.K. -- for instance, head coverings are not allowed in public schools

is that even really about separation of church and state? Somehow I doubt it.

Also the US takes the, IMO, "better" position of saying that individuals practicing private religion doesn't break separation of church and state. Organized religion does.

Of course the US also effectively forces their children to recite a pledge (which includes "under god"), which I find rather distateful.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#348

Post by serge2k »

younes0 wrote: post #323
celticninja wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of poor French Muslim men who are disaffected and marginalised. It is a target because it is where the terrorists are from.

Yeah, they have healthcare, basic income and free university, still they choose mediocrity and ignorance. Fuck them

None of those things can really instill a sense of purpose.

I agree with your point of fuck them, but still.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#349

Post by Houshalter »

pyrrhotech wrote: post #310
Houshalter wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what your point is. If I lost a loved one to a vending machine accident, I might develop a really irrational fear of vending machines. It doesn't mean vending machines are a threat to our society. I know someone who is deadly afraid of putting shoes on tables. Because her friend did that before dying in a traffic accident.

Why are you so convinced that terrorism is not a threat to society? Lots of Romans probably thought the Huns were a laughable foe as well.

Well I'll start with these two gwern essays:

Terrorism is not Effective: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20Effective

Terrorism is not About Terror: http://www.gwern.net/Terrorism%20is%20not%20about%20Terror

Just look at the statistics. The total number of people killed by terrorists is negligible. And 0 terrorist groups have ever won and achieved their stated goals.

I remember the Boston bombing. That same week, there was another explosion at a chemical plant that killed many more people, and blew up a nursing home. Guess which event got more press, by a large amount? Which event are people more likely to remember? Can you even name what city the chemical plant exploded in or remember any details about it?

Why is this? It's because people react to violence much differently than they react to accidents. Because thousands of years ago, violence was the one cause of death you could do something about. If you got an infection, or if a natural disaster struck, or a famine broke out, etc, those are all out of your control. But if someone was a threat to your family or tribe, you could fight them, or flee from them.

We have many emotions and social instincts whose entire purpose is to deal with other humans that threaten us. Like paranoia, anger, and hate. No one hates the chemical plant, and wants to go kill it. People hate the Tsarnaev brothers.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#350

Post by moultano »

lazaroclapp wrote: post #315
moultano wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were universally ignored, it wouldn't damage the social fabric.

So, when I first heard the news, my though was that when in France 40 people get gunned down it is a national emergency, whereas in Mexico (where I am from) it is an statistically peaceful day. That's what no reaction or military-first reaction gets you (well, combined with a lot more issues, but having this be "normal" is part of the problem back there). I do think you want to treat it as "murder is a serious crime…

Certainly, I wouldn't want it ignored by law enforcement and first responders. Beyond that though, the public's reaction is the objective of the terrorists. Reacting to these events is literally "letting the terrorists win."
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