What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#341

Post by shultays » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:03 AM UTC

ashworth wrote: post #233

rewqfdsa wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand your parable correctly, you're suggesting that men deliberately mock and reject women trying to enter the field. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. I have never, not once, witnessed the behavior you describe. I've seen nothing but welcoming behavior toward everyone who wants to learn software. Even among proponents of the systemic discrimination theory, the consensus these days…

What??? My childhood best friend and college roommate shocked me by calling one of our CS classmates a "huge bitch" for not going on a date with him after they had lunch together our first week of college. I've lost track of how many sexist lines I've heard, like: "make me a sammich bitch, haha", "don't be an emo bitch about it, haha", "if we don't let people freely express themselves on the CS listserv, then this is…

> A was male, 21 years old, a stoner and business school drop-out with a portfolio consisting of a Java tower defense game.

> B was female, 30 years old, with several years experience doing QA on computer peripheral drivers who had re-trained herself as a web developer and had a Rails StackOverflow clone and a Meteor KhanAcademy clone for her portfolio.

> A got offered a six-figure full time position.

> B got offered an internship.

Yeah, sorry but that is a lie

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#342

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:04 AM UTC

duaneb wrote: post #283

hackuser wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. There could be a few factors that account for the vast majority.

Sure. But this is still all speculation, and it strikes me as harmful to portray it as a reality.

[deleted]

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#343

Post by briandear » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:12 AM UTC

davmre wrote: post #323

kisstheblade wrote: post #317

One question. Why is it important to make, quote: "computer science more attractive to women..."? I mean I get that the sex discrimination stuff and treatment of women we read here on hacker news is bad and of course it would help if there were more women in tech. But other than that, if you think of the women in general and not some "diversity would be good" (which it probably would be), why the worry? Why aren't we…

The greedy answer: because systematically discouraging 50% of the brainpower of the human species from entering one of our most productive and simultaneously short-staffed occupations is bad for technological progress and the growth of global wealth. The humanist/utilitarian answer: because computer science is intrinsically awesome and rewarding, so global utility is maximized by ensuring that anyone who might be int…

But why should we force that "interest." If girls don't want to do it, why should we be "encouraging" it. We should encourage everyone to follow their passion and talents regardless of what those might be.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#344

Post by 2muchcoffeeman » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:25 AM UTC

j2kun wrote: post #210

rewqfdsa wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against its wishes That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science. If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under…

> Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. Ted is the new kid at school, and he wants to make friends. At recess he approaches a group of smiling, laughing boys to introduce himself. But as he nears the group they get quiet. Ted says hi and his name, and mentions he's new and wants to know if they play "tag" here. The boys reply, "we don't play tag, we p…

That's clearly bullying. The article describes things that I would have thought are really benign:

Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines.

The researchers also found that cultural stereotypes about computer scientists strongly influenced young women’s desire to take classes in the field. At a young age, girls already hold stereotypes of computer scientists as socially isolated young men whose genius is the result of genetics rather than hard work. Given that many girls are indoctrinated to believe that they should be feminine and modest about their abilities, as well as brought up to assume that girls are not innately gifted at science or math, it is not surprising that so few can see themselves as successful computer scientists.

In another experiment, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues arranged for female undergraduates to talk to an actor pretending to be a computer science major. If the actor wore a T-shirt that said “I CODE THEREFORE I AM” and claimed to enjoy video games, the students expressed less interest in studying computer science than if the actor wore a solid shirt and claimed to enjoy hanging out with friends — even if the T-shirt-clad actor was another woman.

Such superficial stereotypes might seem laughably outdated. And yet, studies show that the public’s image of a scientist hasn’t changed since the 1950s. And such stereotypes do have a basis in reality. Who could fail to notice that only one of the eight people awarded Nobel Prizes in science or medicine last week was a woman?

If this is accurate, then the idea that women simply like other things, like rewqfdsa proposes should get more merit.

If that turns out to be the core of the problem, then there may be nothing for people in STEM to do. Because we could be the most welcoming and inclusive bunch but the majority of us are going to turn women off by decorating our walls with Star Wars/Trek posters, reading sci-fi, wearing nerdy T-Shirts and playing video games.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#345

Post by andor » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:27 AM UTC

xerophyte12932 wrote: post #325

icanhackit wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great post though I'd like to add some thoughts to this bit: the professional/business world as a whole rewards and values masculine traits (competitiveness, talking highly of yourself and accomplishments, etc.) I'd argue those are better classified as extroverted traits rather than masculine traits. Believe me, there are more than a few males that suffer from this being the dominant culture in business (or anywhere)…

This is a sort of culture (in geographic terms) thing to be honest. There was a very nice article somewhere that compared the values of the East and the West. Talking highly of yourself actually comes off as negative in the East. In the East, humility is considered far more respectable, where as the same comes off as weak in the west.

Eastern United States? Asia?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#346

Post by astrange » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:33 AM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #22

gaius wrote: post #7

if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines This would seem to be a bit of a bait-and-switch... If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing t…

I don't see how this is bait and switch. I am a programmer and I cant't stand star wars or the vast majority of science fiction. Neither do I enjoy running around with geeky tshirts. You do not have to be nerdy to enjoy working with computers.

I think it's better to call it a specific American subculture than "nerdy". All kinds of people have that level of obsession with other things like fashion, but they have their own communities that respect them for it.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#347

Post by bsder » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:34 AM UTC

Unfortunately for the author, the numbers simply don't support the narrative she wishes to paint:

> The percentage of women studying computer science actually has fallen since the 1980s. Dr. Cheryan theorizes that this decline might be partly attributable to the rise of pop-culture portrayals of scientists as white or Asian male geeks in movies and TV shows like “Revenge of the Nerds” and “The Big Bang Theory.”

CS degrees took a huge jump from 5,000 per year in 1975 with 18% being women to 39,000 per year in 1985 with 37% being women. Perhaps she should ask what caused that.

I'll tell you what--Punchcards, COBOL and the PDP/Vax. Suddenly everybody put their accounting systems on computers, and you needed people who could program them or feed them data. And that required keyboard skills--which were taught to women because every high school had secretarial classes (typing/shorthand/dictation). And, right around when the decline started happening (1984/1985), those secretarial programs all got wiped out.

Perhaps if we start training women to be secretaries again, we'll fix the CS enrollment problem (CAUTION: I'm being sarcastic here about drawing stupid conclusions that fit your desired narrative).

In addition, if you look at Master's degrees awarded, you find that the percentage of women earning Master's in CS is about 28% and has bounced around that number since 1985 and been around 30% since 2001. The percentage of PhD's going to women in CS has been gradually increasing every year since 1977 or so and stands at 21% in 2010.

These aren't the statistics for a field women are having difficulty entering (take a look at electrical engineering for that ...). The fact that female CS undergraduate percentages crashed in 2005 is a bit concerning (similar downblip in EE--wonder what the issue is), but that should be a local cause that should be discoverable rather than systemic.

References: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/content.cfm?pub_id=42... http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab33.pdf

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#348

Post by omginternets » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:35 AM UTC

natvod wrote: post #76

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…

At the risk of going off on a tangent, I think it's interesting to note that a large segment of moderate feminists would take issue with the essentialist notion that there are masculine and feminine traits.

I think this matters because it's very difficult to make any sort of meaningful progress when people seek to invalidate the experience and opinion of those they claim to represent. This is by no means unique to feminist discourse, but it's particularly evident in this case.

A problem with feminism as it currently stands is that too often it's less about improving the life of women than advancing a sociological ideology.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#349

Post by cLeEOGPw » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:38 AM UTC

The first sentence of the article is a claim without any substance and the rest on the article builds on it.

Regarding "gender diversity", I know for sure that construction, road works, automechanic, welding, mining and many other fields have "overrepresented men problem", while teacher, nurse have "overrepresented women" problem, so why focus on technology sector which is pretty good compared to those?

The answer is simple - personal monetary gain. Women see technology sector rise in terms of wages during recent years, and feminism, a.k.a "women labor union", are using their influence to gain unfair advantages for women in that particular profitable spot.

They have already reached quite good results in divorce and alimony laws, so we can't underestimate them now. This trend that puts women (and in some cases minorities) in front of others have to be killed once and for all.

Can someone from US write their senators to create a law that forbids any kind of discrimination or PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT based on gender and race? That law would be enough to basically kill feminism in terms of legal rights at least.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#350

Post by DanBC » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:42 AM UTC

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #349

The first sentence of the article is a claim without any substance and the rest on the article builds on it. Regarding "gender diversity", I know for sure that construction, road works, automechanic, welding, mining and many other fields have "overrepresented men problem", while teacher, nurse have "overrepresented women" problem, so why focus on technology sector which is pretty good compared to those? The answer is…

> I know for sure that construction, road works, automechanic, welding, mining and many other fields have "overrepresented men problem", while teacher, nurse have "overrepresented women" problem,

Each of those have industry and education groups dedicated to changing the disparity.