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1.5 Million Missing Black Men

nytimes.com

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Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#331

Post by panglott »

Kluny wrote: post #162
erickhill wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is treading off-topic, but interestingly, "lefty wacko uber-progressive" Seattle (I put that in quotes as it's not my thoughts, but some of the commenters found on The Seattle Times would likely describe it as such) has the highest percentage of nuclear families in the 50 largest cities in the U.S. Source: http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2014/12/28/end-of-the-...

I think you and your parent comment may be using two different definitions of "nuclear" though. One definition is the traditional mom-dad-2.3 kids arrangement, but a broader and equally valid definition can include polygamy, gay parents with a surrogate, lesbian parents with a sperm donor, couples where the mom and dad have split and started new families but still have kids in common, and a million other combinations…

"Nuclear" should mean that newly married couples form a new household rather than integrating into the household of the extended family.

Why the nuclear rather than the extended family would be considered important for social stability is anyone's guess. We live in an incredibly atomized society that values personal freedom and autonomy over interdependence and social connection, but that doesn't mean "stability".

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#332

Post by panglott »

hindsightbias wrote: post #237
hackuser wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure no geo-political reasons cause many middle eastern societies to treat woman lower than dogs and cats. The U.S. and western powers keep the conservative Middle Eastern dictatorships in place, preventing any social and political reform. That is, in fact, a major cause of resentment by people of the Middle East toward the West. In fact, Al Qaeda's goal is to overthrow the Middle Eastern dictatorships (…

It's a major cause of resentment, but that doesn't mean they've thought it out. I'd argue that the US has been a socially moderating force, not that that was intentional or a US goal. I don't think there's any evidence Iraq, Libya, Egypt (under Morsi), Syria (under whatever remains) and eventually KSA are going to end up with better treatment for women when all their political reform is over. Iraq under Saddam was mo…

The dictatorships may be based on nominally secular values that Western countries prefer, but they also have choked out the civil society that is the foundation of liberal democracy.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#333

Post by dragonwriter »

innguest wrote: post #330
burkaman wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that you need to acknowledge the concept of race. Say you're facing a 10% unemployment rate in some city. If you treat everyone as an equal individual, the solution will be some combination of economic changes, lowering taxes, increasing subsidies, whatever. Now imagine 90% of the unemployed are black, in a city where blacks are the minority. Clearly there is more than an economic problem here. Promoting indiv…

You seem to only be able to think from the perspective of central planning. I invite you to stop invoking this earthly "god" and give people a chance. Can you give me an example of how a town where 90% of the unemployed are black could possibly come into being in the free market where voluntary trade and contracts are enforced by the governments courts (and there are no group-membership based laws)? I'll give you the…

Without granting that your premise is either meaningful or coherent, racism in the population could easily explain it. The absence of group membership based laws doesn't impy the absence of group membership based attitudes that are implemented through individual decisions.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#334

Post by panglott »

_delirium wrote: post #302
javert wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US we had segregation, not apartheid. There is a difference. As a white man living in the South, we still have segregation in practice. I rarely had interaction with blacks because they did different things and took different classes at school. We all went to the same schools---just didn't have the same classes or have the same social circles. Not much shared in the way of culture. I have had some black friend…

What the South had for much of the 20th century was much closer to apartheid. Blacks were not allowed to vote, for example, or to exercise generally protected rights that whites had, such as the right to assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances. In a merely segregated situation, different races would be prevented from mixing but treated by the government as equal citizens. That did not come clos…

Louisville, Kentucky, had segregation but not Jim Crow. The black population was a minor but important voting bloc, that could unite to oust mayors who really crossed a line with the racist bullshit. But make no mistake about how people were "treated as equal citizens" under segregation. When the city started establishing a system of large parks, black people were to be excluded, and when the black community protested, the city created a smaller, special park that black people could visit. Add to that the problems of educational segregation, political corruption, voter fraud and intimidation.

The North was not much better, where racial segregation in places like Chicago and Seattle was enforced through redlining, blockbusting, restrictive deed covenants, &c., and outright government policy.

Much of the country was ruled by an explicit white supremacist ideology for much of the 20th century, often enforced through open terroristic violence (lynching).

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#335

Post by panglott »

random_pr wrote: post #185
DanBC wrote: post #128

The numbers are boggling. I don't understand how Americans tolerate such a blatantly racist prison system. http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet

because it isn't obviously racist. you can't just say "more african americans and hispanics are arrested than whites or asians, therefore, police are targeting african americans and hispanics unfairly." that's not how it works. wrt. drug-related crimes, sure, there seems to be a weird disparity (does it take into account 'casual' drug users vs. 'hardcore' drug users?). wrt. violent crime, however, the percent of arre…

It's obviously racist, it's just implicitly racist rather than explicitly so ;)

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#336

Post by panglott »

brc wrote: post #245
ars wrote: post #44

Historically this was solved by polygamy. (The cause of the missing men back then was usually war and travel danger on business expeditions.) Polygamy is still occurring, except without the official status of wife. Makes me wonder if the benefits of outlawing polygamy in the US might not outweigh the harm - especially because it happens anyway.

Polygamy is a bad thing because it concentrates power, decreases equality for women and increases resentment by lowers status men, who have little hope of a happy life. Usually polygamy only create a small set of legitimate heirs and a larger subset of 'bastards' who also have little prospects in life within these societies. Polygamy is actually a rarity in human societies, and while it definitely exists as a cultura…

Is this an inherent feature of polygamy, or simply a consequence of the fact that polygamy occurs mostly in less-developed non-Western societies?

Polygamy is pretty common cross-culturally in agricultural societies, if not commonly the dominant form of marriage.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#337

Post by panglott »

santaclaus wrote: post #7

"The gaps tend to be smallest in the West." Well, except for LA and Oakland. I wonder why the other west coast cities have the opposite trend?

Looks like gentrification is pricing out the historic black community of San Francisco, &c., because the NIMBYs don't want to build enough housing for the people moving there. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9408009

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#338

Post by panglott »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #222
haberman wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem. There are plenty of obvious things that need fixing, even if you don't believe at all in affirmative action-like programs: 1. Clear conflicts of interest in the criminal justice system, like regular prosecutors being responsible for bringing charges a…

> The unjustifiable war on drugs, which disproportionately affects black communities. See, this gets to the heart of the matter. I personally think the war on drugs is very stupid, but the data indicates that it does not disproportionately affect blacks. Blacks use drugs at much higher rates than whites and blacks distribute drugs at even higher rates than whites. The prosecutions for narcotics crimes are by all indi…

If a stupid law disproportionately harms black people, that's racist.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#339

Post by JoeAltmaier »

panglott wrote: post #338
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The unjustifiable war on drugs, which disproportionately affects black communities. See, this gets to the heart of the matter. I personally think the war on drugs is very stupid, but the data indicates that it does not disproportionately affect blacks. Blacks use drugs at much higher rates than whites and blacks distribute drugs at even higher rates than whites. The prosecutions for narcotics crimes are by all indi…

If a stupid law disproportionately harms black people, that's racist.

No, it isn't. Racism has to include a positive correlation with race. And not a correlation with a confounding variable. In this case, the rate of offending is the confounding variable.
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