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"Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

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Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#331

Post by oldmanjay »

pikachu_is_cool wrote: post #215

Fourteen year old kids were telling me that they were going to skullfuck my grandmother with a rake over Xbox Live, a decade ago, just because I killed them once or twice in Halo 2. Internet insults have always been ridiculously over the top, it's nothing new. Nobody is actually going to rape or kill her over this, you're a massive idiot if you think for even a split second that they would.

It does seem like there's an awful lot of energy being expended on stopping 14 year old boys from being assholes. I suspect it's about as likely to work as efforts to stop teenagers from having sex. At least quixotic quests are entertaining from the sidelines.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#332

Post by bronson »

Diederich wrote: post #311
vidarh wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is in part a cultural issue. Realise that this form of "abuse" does not carry much weight in a lot of cultures. A lot of the strongest criticism of Linus comes from a cultural background where people are hyper-sensitive to direct language.

Verbal abuse and direct language are unrelated. Direct language, without verbal abuse: "I am upset and angry that you keep making the same mistakes." That's clearly communicating how he feels, without verbally abusing his audience.

"I am upset and angry that you keep making the same mistakes."

No, remember the context: you've already used nice, direct words, and Kai has ignored them multiple times. Now you need to shake Kai's cage. Linus might have gone overboard, but his technique has more chance of success than yours.

Also, this is not a sterile corporate environment. The LKML is more like a dive bar than Applebee's and that's the way they like it.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#333

Post by minikites »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #272
minikites wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is different for men and women. http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/women-ar... "Accounts with feminine usernames incurred an average of 100 sexually explicit or threatening messages a day. Masculine names received 3.7." http://time.com/3305466/male-female-harassment-online/ The study pointed out that the harassment targeted at men is not because they are men, as is clearly more frequently the ca…

This is a bit of a change of subject. Lennert Pottering is male. Would the aforementioned unpleasant behavior be more acceptable to you if it were directed via a random number generator (i.e. a random set of people are singled out to receive 100 messages/day) rather than a predictable decision process?

I was responding to your overall premise:

> Somewhere along the line, we gave this up and became a culture where feelings matter more than results. I think the solution here is for the tech world to regrow the thick skin it once had.

I disagree that the solution is to regrow a thick skin and if you ignore the differing experiences that tech women have, you're overlooking a gigantic problem in the current tech industry and tech culture.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#334

Post by Kalium »

Diederich wrote: post #324
Kalium wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The old writers' saw runs "Show, don't tell". It speaks to effective communication. It applies here. Consider which is more effective in person - the phrase "I am angry" uttered in a calm tone of voice or profanity and insults in an angry tone of voice. One of those states anger. The other communicates anger.

Kalium, you bring up the strongest point in favor of defending and using verbally abusive language. I've been through military basic training, and such language is routinely used because it is quite effective at communicating error by breaking down mental resistance and barriers to correction. In that case, the potential for emotional harm is outweighed by the net reduction in the probability for physical harm on the…

I agree, there are other methods to accomplish the same thing without the toxic side effects. That is not in question. The question is if those methods produce superior outcomes, as a lack of the side effects in question does not by itself represent a superior outcome.

Remember, the goal of an open source project is useful code. A friendly and emotionally supportive community is only desirable if it aids in achieving that goal.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#335

Post by jdmichal »

bhouston wrote: post #107

I'll probably get burned for saying this but I think this is related to GamerGate/SocialJusticeWarriors. I think that other controversy is being portrayed as anti-feminist (and there is a lot of undertones of that) but I think that it is more indicative of a general problem -- it is basically unrestrained incivility against those whom one has disagreements, or who has done perceived wrongs. For some reason it has bec…

I'm not really sure deindividuation is the process you are looking for here. Typically, that is when the aggressor has more or less delegated the awareness of the consequences of their actions to another party. In this case, the aggressor is not delegating that awareness to anyone; they are still very much an individual who is choosing to make these actions.

This is closer to dehumanization, where the aggressor simply fails to be self-aware that there is a human that they are abusing, due to the impersonal nature of the communication channels being used.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#336

Post by Diederich »

bronson wrote: post #332
Diederich wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Verbal abuse and direct language are unrelated. Direct language, without verbal abuse: "I am upset and angry that you keep making the same mistakes." That's clearly communicating how he feels, without verbally abusing his audience.

"I am upset and angry that you keep making the same mistakes." No, remember the context: you've already used nice, direct words, and Kai has ignored them multiple times. Now you need to shake Kai's cage. Linus might have gone overboard, but his technique has more chance of success than yours. Also, this is not a sterile corporate environment. The LKML is more like a dive bar than Applebee's and that's the way they li…

If you equate 'sterile' with 'not verbal abuse', I suppose that's true.

Given that direct words were ignored multiple times, I would suggest that the next action is simply to not merge, without comment, after a final "You are ignoring us, we can't the time to keep correcting you. Your bad merges will be ignored without comment."

Such a path will get a developer's attention, and it involves no verbal abuse.

A problem with flinging abusive words around is that it artificially and needlessly limits the diversity of your community. Though, it might be that that's t he intent:

"The LKML is more like a dive bar than Applebee's and that's the way they like it."

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#337

Post by piyush_soni »

tomp wrote: post #302
pyre wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expand on the "all bullshit" part then because it comes across as saying that there isn't any point to being civil with people.

No. You seem to deliberately want to misunderstand me. Many != all.

So, basically you might be talking bullshit here. There is NO correlation between being a verbal assh*le and being efficient. People can 'deliver' without insulting others. Linus is a high headed rude man, and there's no need for that. You can be straightforward and succinct without being insulting.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#338

Post by nathanb »

tanglesome wrote: post #207
nathanb wrote: post #153

He calls Linus out for being a toxic element in the open source (or at least Linux) ecosystem. This is quite probably true. Trying to look at it from the other side, though, I wonder if Linus got to be the way he is because it's how he copes with the toxic effluvia he has to deal with on a regular basis. Surely Torvalds has to deal with even more of this than Poettering does. If these things were directed at me on a…

You know for being a toxic element, Linus's has done a hell of a job with Linux. Is there anything else that's even come close to it in terms of technical or business success? I don't think so.

Yes, while I think he is culturally and emotionally toxic, he is also brilliant, and has led Linux to great success. I respect his achievements and his technical abilities. Do you think this excuses his behavior?

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#339

Post by bronson »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #307
kyberias wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you'd point out all the pretty crappy code Linus had checked in? That would be your, what, revenge? And a way of showing how not to be a jerk? I don't think Linus would care. Everyone makes mistakes. Linus is a gatekeeper of sorts and he has to "point out crappy code" whether people like his language or not. The outside world just needs to decide how seriously they take these outbursts. I don't think there's any…

There are certainly evil outcomes when potential contributors actively avoid the Linux kernel and/or other open source projects because the culture can be so hostile. It's a double loss. It makes the code weaker and less innovative, and it makes the culture seem unappealing to outsiders. You might not think that's significant. But how can you know what you're missing by not being more exclusive? Consider: open source…

You're talking about the Linux Kernel, one of the most productive cultures of collaborative support ever created by humans. If you're going to argue against success, you're going to need to bring a lot of evidence.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#340

Post by fl0wenol »

endersshadow wrote: post #146
tomp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I don't consider this bad. Sure, it's offensive, but he has quite a good reason to be upset - reading one byte at a time will be really slow. Could he say it in a better way? Obviously. Could you interpret his words in a less literal way? Obviously. I don't know Linus, but he seems a good, selfless guy, with the best intentions at heart. If he's not politically correct, who the fuck cares? Sometime…

Whoa. Timeout. This isn't political correctness--it's basic human decency. Political correctness is replacing the use of a term for a euphemism. Even putting this in euphemistic terms should be completely unacceptable. If I told somebody at work that they were so stupid, I wasn't sure how they survived childhood, I'd be asked to leave, post haste. I think that the OSS community (and IT community in a broader sense) h…

Contrary to this, I find myself envious of a person who can dress down another in a flagrant and creative way.

If I got dissed in such a hyperbolic way from a boss that was paying me, I would leave.

In a situation where I've toiled in a position of importance in a project I work on in my free time, and I screwed up, I think I'd be hurt if I was dismissed lightly and without creative ire. I mean, I want to know that if I screwed up, I screwed up enough for someone to admonish me creatively, since there isn't any method of management. Your tool is primarily shame, you can't suspend someone without pay from a mailing list.

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