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For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

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Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#331
post #257

What people should be more concerned with is the fact that the government is selling off someone elses property before they have even been convicted of a crime. Dread pirate roberts plead not guilty and has still not had a trial yet. He has not been convicted of any crime so if these are his coins they are selling them before the trial is even finished

Disclaimer: I think civil forfeiture laws are applied without sufficient discretion in drug cases. And it's troubling that they apply not just to illegally-obtained assets, but those that are "instrumentality of a crime." That said, there's an important wrinkle here that you're glossing over, and that is usually glossed over in discussions about civil forfeiture.

Civil forfeiture is not confiscation of your property as punishment for committing a crime. It's a determination that the property was never yours to begin with, because it was obtained in an illegal transaction.[1] That's why the standard for civil forfeiture isn't whether the person is guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" but rather whether the property is the fruits of a crime by the "preponderance of the evidence." Any civil dispute over the rightful ownership of property is evaluated according to a preponderance of the evidence standard, and the dispute about the status of the property can be resolved without resolving the issue of criminal guilt.

The very important distinction to make here is that the issue of whether Ulbricht is guilty is distinct from whether the money is the proceeds of illegal activity. Maybe Ulbricht gets acquitted because he creates enough reasonable doubt that he isn't DPR, as he claims. Or because he succeeds in getting key evidence excluded because of a procedural failure by the feds. His acquittal doesn't mean that the money wasn't the product of illegal activity. Indeed, he has tremendous incentive to try and prove that he never owned these Bitcoins, because that goes to proving he isn't DPR!

[1] At least when we're talking about cash. There's a whole host of more questionable issues when it comes to things like forfeiture of vehicles and guns used in crimes. See: http://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1459...; see also: http://ij.org/pennsylvania-judge-calls-civil-asset-forfeitur... (for a particularly egregious example).

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#332
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arguments you make (speculation + deflation) have been discussed many times. The answer is always the same. Bitcoin proponents argue that they are not a problem because: 1. As the use of Bitcoin increases over time, as the exchange markets become bigger and deeper, as economic activity is surpassing speculative activity, etc, the effect of speculation are becoming smaller and smaller. There is evidence that this…

Bitcoin proponents tend to have a vested interest and can be.. less than objective. @1: A trade alone does not help BTC stabilise. We ARE seeing an increase in BTC trade, but all of this is pegged to local currency, and usually traded out for that immediately. As it is held for a very short period, there is no real effect on price, and is essentially the same as cashing out.[1] What might help BTC stabilise would be…

@2 Not really a coherent argument there. Hoarding due to appreciation is balanced by the wealth effect. You can't just assume catastrophic runaway feedback due to upward price trends. That kind of human behavior is unknowable a priori. One could easily argue that an upward price trend will encourage buying, which increases adoption. This creates a feedback loop, which will help establish a transaction volume large enough to give bitcoin enough stability to appeal to the average person.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are times when analogies are very helpful.. this isn't one of them. instead of comparing it to that, let's talk about what it actually is. an illegal black market for drugs. you're either being greedy, disingenuous, or crazy if you think their money should be returned. if anything they are lucky the government doesn't pursue the users with legal action.

Is having bitcoin on a website illegal, even if you don't buy anything?

The question is irrelevant.

The moment I transfer a bitcoin to Silk Road, it's no longer my bitcoin. It's theirs. I've exchanged it for a promise from Silk Road to pass on the bitcoin to someone else or return it to me when I ask.

The government never seized my bitcoin. They seized Silk Road's bitcoin. This means Silk Road has more liabilities than assets. And since Silk Road hasn't given me a promissory note in exchange for my bitcoin, I'm an unsecured general creditor - and unsecured general creditors cannot establish standing to recover seized assets.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civil forfeiture. From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture#United_States "In civil cases, the owner need not be judged guilty of any crime; it is possible for the Government to prevail by proving that someone other than the owner used the property to commit a crime. In contrast, criminal forfeiture is usually carried out in a sentence following a conviction and is a punitive act against the offen…

How is that reasonable?

Different standards of evidence, I guess. To be jailed for something, the standard of evidence is higher than to confiscate money gotten through that same thing.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#335

Isn't this a bit presumptuous? Ross William Ulbricht hasn't yet been convicted of anything. I know that they aren't selling his personal bitcoins, but in the (highly unlikely) event that he is found innocent, wouldn't that mean that the Silk Road assets need to be returned to him? How then can they sell them now?

I don't think so. Since the assets were on SR servers, which weren't technically Ross's personal property, and the business was used for selling drugs (admittedly along with other things), civil forfeiture laws allow the government to take those assets. Doesn't matter what happens with the lawsuit.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#336
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These coins should be removed from the blockchain in a protocol update agreed upon by everyone. No government should be making money this way.

so it's perfectly fair to profit from selling drugs that kill people, but when the profits from illegal activity are seized, the public shouldn't be able to reuse them?

[deleted]

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#337
post #257

What people should be more concerned with is the fact that the government is selling off someone elses property before they have even been convicted of a crime. Dread pirate roberts plead not guilty and has still not had a trial yet. He has not been convicted of any crime so if these are his coins they are selling them before the trial is even finished

Disclaimer: I think civil forfeiture laws are applied without sufficient discretion in drug cases. And it's troubling that they apply not just to illegally-obtained assets, but those that are "instrumentality of a crime." That said, there's an important wrinkle here that you're glossing over, and that is usually glossed over in discussions about civil forfeiture. Civil forfeiture is not confiscation of your property…

How do they determine the property is the result of illegal activity if the owner of the property has yet to be convicted of illegal activity?

That way of thinking opens up our current problems of police seizing everything within grasp during an arrest or traffic stop claiming the property is the result of illegal activity. "Hello, I pulled you over because it's late at night and I'm wondering if you're okay. Oh, you happen to have $10,000 in cash on hand? Drug money, I'll take that."

If this is the way the law is being interpreted then we gave up property rights a long time ago.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civil forfeiture. From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture#United_States "In civil cases, the owner need not be judged guilty of any crime; it is possible for the Government to prevail by proving that someone other than the owner used the property to commit a crime. In contrast, criminal forfeiture is usually carried out in a sentence following a conviction and is a punitive act against the offen…

How is that reasonable?

It's not, but allowing it is easier for politicians than raising taxes to pay for all the policing that the voters want.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#339
post #257

What people should be more concerned with is the fact that the government is selling off someone elses property before they have even been convicted of a crime. Dread pirate roberts plead not guilty and has still not had a trial yet. He has not been convicted of any crime so if these are his coins they are selling them before the trial is even finished

Disclaimer: I think civil forfeiture laws are applied without sufficient discretion in drug cases. And it's troubling that they apply not just to illegally-obtained assets, but those that are "instrumentality of a crime." That said, there's an important wrinkle here that you're glossing over, and that is usually glossed over in discussions about civil forfeiture. Civil forfeiture is not confiscation of your property…

[deleted]

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#340
post #257

What people should be more concerned with is the fact that the government is selling off someone elses property before they have even been convicted of a crime. Dread pirate roberts plead not guilty and has still not had a trial yet. He has not been convicted of any crime so if these are his coins they are selling them before the trial is even finished

These coins should be removed from the blockchain in a protocol update agreed upon by everyone. No government should be making money this way.

This has been proposed before in other situations. For example, the Mt. Gox coins were proposed to either be "destroyed" or sent back to their purchasers with a blockchain update.

This introduces serious problems with the question of "who is everyone" (when you say, agreed upon by everyone). In other words, is the community going to set up a centralized board to hear complaints and reverse transactions? Does this turn into "I bought a trinket on ebay and the guy didn't send me the thing, reverse the transaction"?

Part of the strength of bitcoin is a permanent historical record. There's been some suggestion that the true long-term benefit of bitcoin is not in the "money" part, but the blockchain itself. As soon as the blockchain becomes mutable, then this value becomes suspect, and the line for "how bad does it have to be before we edit the blockchain" might get weaker and weaker.

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