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The Brutal Ageism of Tech

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Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#331

Post by sjg007 »

It irks me when a journalist doesn't do their homework. Take for instance: "Unfortunately, the problems the average 22-year-old male programmer has experienced are all about being an affluent single guy in Northern California. That’s how we’ve ended up with so many games (Angry Birds, Flappy Bird, Crappy Bird) and all those apps for what one start-up founder described to me as cooler ways to hang out with friends on a Saturday night."

To dissect this: 1. Rovio is a Finnish Company (Angry Birds) 2. Flappy Bird is a guy from Vietnam. 3. Crappy Bird... ?

Not one of these examples illustrate the argument that they were solved by 22 year old affluent males from Northern California.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#332

Post by kfcm »

The year 2000 saw me in my early going on mid-thirties, and I was the youngest person in the room.

Then I went to work for a pretty cloistered company for the next eight years. One closed local office and one declined offer to move to HQ later, I started looking around. And suddenly found myself the oldest person in the room.

I had done contract work for many of these companies prior to 2000, often for the very same departments or groups. The irony of the situation is the lead and management positions which had been filled by guys in their late 30s, 40s and 50s, were "now" filled by guys in their late-20s and very early 30s. And the difference showed.

This is in the Midwest, so ageism isn't just a SV thing.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#333

Post by bsder »

bluedino wrote: post #321
bsder wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the issues that is unpopular to discuss in inertia in constraints. Prove it with some research. The current research shows that people really don't make their best contributions to their field before 35-45. And, to be fair, I see more young people who attempt to hit the screw with a hammer because a hammer is the only tool they have.

>> The current research shows that people really don't make their best contributions to their field before 35-45. Look at someone like John Carmack - before he was 35 he had done Command Keen, Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Quake 1-3. Guys like Steve Wozniak were basically out of the business by the time they hit 35. Linus released Linux when he was 22, and started git when he was 35. I doubt guys like Marc Andreesen have wri…

And Federico Faggin who headed the development team for the 4004 was 30 at the time. William Kahan who was instrumental in the Intel 8087 was about 45. I can go on.

So, basically what you're saying is that young people can churn out software where you can undo your huge screwup, but if you have to get it right the first time like hardware, then you need some experience.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#334

Post by aortega »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #175
aortega wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so much. I'm 35, started programming at about 10 in my TI99-4A, typing games from magazines, etc. the usual stuff. No way a 40 year old guy have more experience than me in general programming, unless he was working at Microsoft or IBM at that date, and surely they are about less than 10000 of those guys in the world. Of course there are 40 year olds that may have way more experience than me in a specific language…

You think you have more experience than 40 year olds because you were typing in games when you were a kid? How about the people working when you were a kid? I don't know, this is sort of an incredible thing to say.

Maybe I'm not that good at english because I believe I was clear that there obviously are people with more experience than me, but there are few. IT in the 70's and 80's was a extremely small field.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#335

Post by aortega »

RogerL wrote: post #280
aortega wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so much. I'm 35, started programming at about 10 in my TI99-4A, typing games from magazines, etc. the usual stuff. No way a 40 year old guy have more experience than me in general programming, unless he was working at Microsoft or IBM at that date, and surely they are about less than 10000 of those guys in the world. Of course there are 40 year olds that may have way more experience than me in a specific language…

Well, you are "old". Yup, over thirty, you have missed the boat. Welcome to the new ageism. FWIW, I'm 47 and was programming assembly and microcode in my youth. So I have 10 years on you. At this scale, I doubt the difference matters much. Because you are old, too.

My point is that there are VERY VERY FEW people like you and they are expensive.

Also, you have about 30% more experience than me, I don't think it's a small amount.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#336

Post by analog31 »

craigyk wrote: post #320
skrebbel wrote: post #219

Anecdotal: I'm a part-time CTO (long story) of a startup. I'm 30 myself. We hired 6 engineers in total up until now: three interns in their twenties, who're very smart and motivated but also inexperienced; two programmers with a few years of professional experience who can get to real decent (well written, unit tested, etc) code on the first go; and 1 guy of over 40. When hiring, I was very skeptical of the guy over…

The more I think about it, ageism is mostly about reducing perceived costs: Older people have families, more experience (in general), demand higher salaries, and are less likely to put in crazy hours. They can still totally be worth it.

I'd be interested in knowing if the older workers who avoid crazy hours are the same ones who avoided crazy hours when they were younger.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#337

Post by aortega »

brohee wrote: post #262
aortega wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so much. I'm 35, started programming at about 10 in my TI99-4A, typing games from magazines, etc. the usual stuff. No way a 40 year old guy have more experience than me in general programming, unless he was working at Microsoft or IBM at that date, and surely they are about less than 10000 of those guys in the world. Of course there are 40 year olds that may have way more experience than me in a specific language…

My father was programming before you were born... Working in a bank, not for an editor...

Did I say that people with more experience than me does not exist?

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#338

Post by aortega »

csixty4 wrote: post #311
Gormo wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computer technology is about 60 years old, though. There were people doing some pioneering work in the 50s and 60s, and the modern hacker culture really has its roots in the 1970s, just prior to the rise of personal computing. There was lots of stuff going on with the DEC minicomputers, LISP machines, early UNIX systems, and big-iron mainframes long before most of us were even born, let alone getting our starts on TI…

The work in the late 40s was interesting, too. First, you had specialized systems, then Eckert, Mauchly, and von Neumann started working on stored program computers. They had to figure out what opcodes were needed and how they were going to be implemented. Jean Jennings Bartik's book ( http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-Programmer-Jennings-Computer-C... ) is a great first-hand account of all the work (and drama) from back…

The fact that you can name by memory the people that worked in the 40's means that the size of the computer science community back then was tiny.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#339

Post by aortega »

zacinbusiness wrote: post #225
aortega wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so much. I'm 35, started programming at about 10 in my TI99-4A, typing games from magazines, etc. the usual stuff. No way a 40 year old guy have more experience than me in general programming, unless he was working at Microsoft or IBM at that date, and surely they are about less than 10000 of those guys in the world. Of course there are 40 year olds that may have way more experience than me in a specific language…

I'm sorry, what? If a guy has been doing a job for longer than you then he can't possibly have more experience than you? Isn't "experience" "doing"?

Did you read my entire comment before pressing reply or only the first three words?

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#340

Post by aortega »

arethuza wrote: post #216
aortega wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so much. I'm 35, started programming at about 10 in my TI99-4A, typing games from magazines, etc. the usual stuff. No way a 40 year old guy have more experience than me in general programming, unless he was working at Microsoft or IBM at that date, and surely they are about less than 10000 of those guys in the world. Of course there are 40 year olds that may have way more experience than me in a specific language…

"My point is that if computer tech is only 30 year old" I'd be really interested as to how you get that figure...

From my ass, basically. It was an example. It work for any other kind of tech.
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