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Fired? Speak No Evil

nytimes.com

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Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#331

Post by throwaway7808 »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #313
throwaway7808 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only the life is unfair and the distribution of power is completely asymmetric here. You may actually need a positive reference about you and the company usually don't care what you say. You also don't have any way to verify and prosecute a company, if your former boss actually makes a negative comment about you (think a start-up, an immature founder gradually turning into a complete ass-hole under the pressure of re…

> the distribution of power is completely asymmetric here I'm pretty sure there is no fundamental law of the Universe that makes it so, only the fact that it is allowed to persist in this state by the multitudes who actually (but unknowingly, it seems) hold the power to change it. You know, "if only there was a way" for employees to unite, and therefore increase their bargaining power with employers.

I don't think that employee unions are helpful in the long term. I'd rather see individuals exercising some common sense and making good informed decisions. Like instantly recognizing bullies and not working for (with) them. Quitting, the moment such behaviour is directed toward anyone in the company. After all, if you see someone else being bullied/not paid/whatever, given time, there's a good chance it would apply to you as well.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#332

Post by dangayle »

When I and my team stood up to the executive team of a startup I was working for and quit, they offered me this exact non-disparagement gag clause in exchange for any compensation whatsoever.

The reason we quit was because they were taking advantage of us, and we knew we were never going to get paid. We also knew that they would simply lie to whoever it was they were going to replace us with, so we refused to sign the gag.

It was seriously one of the worst companies to work for, and I was darn sure going to make sure that everyone knew it. I value my freedom of speech

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#333

Post by poopsintub »

officemonkey wrote: post #209
nemesisj wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love it whenever anyone insists something "isn't a big deal" or they don't care about it that much. I will simply say that it is a big deal to me, so if it's not a big deal to them, they might as well do it my way. This works in almost all cases, or the other party has to backtrack and then at least we're negotiating on more transparent terms.

Exactly this. If it's "no big deal" then ex it out of the agreement. Oh? You won't? Then I guess it is a big deal after all.

The same thing happened when they tried to tack on fee when leasing my car. Also, if they offer to split the cost of an add-on with you, they can eat the whole cost most of the time.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#334

Post by throwaway7808 »

throwaway3471 wrote: post #286
grellas wrote: post #277

Non-disparagement clauses can be seen as a throwaway item, a suffocating burden, an essential protection, or a damned nuisance, each according to taste or context. To begin with, lawyers tend to see these clauses as essential protections and they are sometimes right. But, right or wrong, they tend to insist upon them, especially in the employment context. This explains their prevalence but, of course, does not necess…

You said context is critical and this is interesting because a friend of mine is currently dealing with how to handle termination for a contract job (1099 not W2) they were performing. They had worked for this company for about about half a year now and every single itemized invoice, which should have been paid in X days, was paid over over 4 times X days late every time and the CEO was unresponsive to emails address…

Your friend had made a mistake. He should not have continued working without pay. There is nothing to be done here now. This CEO have an upper hand and your friend is not in a position to make any bargains. A take-away lesson - do not work without pay.

(just for a reference, what nationality is the CEO?

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#335

Post by nsxwolf »

BlackDeath3 wrote: post #325
nsxwolf wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll probably initiate less talk of any kind with you after pulling that.

That's fine with me. They sound like the type of people I'd rather not spend much time talking to anyway.

People who would get offended if you called their kid ugly are not the kind of people you'd want to spend time with? That's basically every person on earth.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#337

Post by kylemaxwell »

throwaway7808 wrote: post #331
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the distribution of power is completely asymmetric here I'm pretty sure there is no fundamental law of the Universe that makes it so, only the fact that it is allowed to persist in this state by the multitudes who actually (but unknowingly, it seems) hold the power to change it. You know, "if only there was a way" for employees to unite, and therefore increase their bargaining power with employers.

I don't think that employee unions are helpful in the long term. I'd rather see individuals exercising some common sense and making good informed decisions. Like instantly recognizing bullies and not working for (with) them. Quitting, the moment such behaviour is directed toward anyone in the company. After all, if you see someone else being bullied/not paid/whatever, given time, there's a good chance it would apply…

It would be great if everyone were in a life situation to be able to do that. Unfortunately, most people are not.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#338

Post by x0054 »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #281
grellas wrote: post #277

Non-disparagement clauses can be seen as a throwaway item, a suffocating burden, an essential protection, or a damned nuisance, each according to taste or context. To begin with, lawyers tend to see these clauses as essential protections and they are sometimes right. But, right or wrong, they tend to insist upon them, especially in the employment context. This explains their prevalence but, of course, does not necess…

I'd like to see some fairness in the matter. I will sign all the non-disparagement clauses you guys like, if you do the same. In other words, the company cannot make any negative comments about me. In general, I think fairness should be pushed way up front. Want me to give you two weeks notice? Okay. You give me two weeks notice before you "terminate" me. It's all a contract, and there are two sides to it. I don't se…

The mutual non-disparagement contract is not all that mutual. As an employee you are prevented from talking bad about the company, so you will say nothing about them. However, if you are looking for a new job, your new employer may call your old employer to check up on you. If there is a mutual non-disparagement contract at play, they will be passed to the corporate console who will tell them that so and so employee did work for the company from date to date, but they can not discuss the matter any further. For all employees this is a huge red flag. And the best thing, when asked about it, the employee would not be able to explain the situation because of the same contract.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#339

Post by x0054 »

x0054 wrote: post #338
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see some fairness in the matter. I will sign all the non-disparagement clauses you guys like, if you do the same. In other words, the company cannot make any negative comments about me. In general, I think fairness should be pushed way up front. Want me to give you two weeks notice? Okay. You give me two weeks notice before you "terminate" me. It's all a contract, and there are two sides to it. I don't se…

The mutual non-disparagement contract is not all that mutual. As an employee you are prevented from talking bad about the company, so you will say nothing about them. However, if you are looking for a new job, your new employer may call your old employer to check up on you. If there is a mutual non-disparagement contract at play, they will be passed to the corporate console who will tell them that so and so employee…

If your company asks you to sign a non-disparagement contract, ask them for a reference letter in return. Chose a project or 2 you did a good job on and ask them to write you a good or at least ok reference.

Re: Fired? Speak No Evil

#340

Post by DavidWanjiru »

I've always assumed that severance pay is not an artifact that is negotiated upon severance, but rather that it comes into effect once the necessary conditions vest, so to speak. Severance pay, and an employee's right to it, is implicitly contained in the employment agreement, and once the conditions for payment laid out in the employment and labour law regime under which you were hired are met, then your right to get paid automatically comes into effect. The idea that an employer can refuse to pay you on the basis that you have refused to sign a severance agreement seems out of whack with the spirit of the law to me, assuming that this is not explicitly stated either in law or in your employment terms (that your being paid for severance is subject to you signing a severance agreement).
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