Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage • Hacker News Board

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#331

Post by dv_dt » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:07 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #224

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

That's not a bad model to view it through, but I would say calling them "phases" instead of something like "activities" creates a false reliance on ordering. In many successful programming projects/products, those five activities occurred simultaneously, or out of order, or in waves of progress along all or some activities. Seldom has it ever been a clean single waterfall pass.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#332

Post by lp4v4n » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:07 PM UTC

gliall_err wrote: post #288

kypro wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unfortunately just the result of technological progress. People for centuries have crafted extremely hard to acquire skills over decades only to find their labour being made completely worthless due to automation or better alternatives disrupting their industry. Carpenters, hatters, cobblers, miners, weavers, calculators, etc... We can get mad about it, but it just is what it is. Ultimately for most people th…

This is a sophomoric oversimplification. The US and Europe might have lost a lot of craftsmanship knowledge at a social level. Yet, what is left is so far ahead of what has ever existed in countries in South America for example. And China has gained a lot. Witness that youtuber trying to make grill brushes in the US. These differences have an impact in terms of opportunities and competition. It's easy to sit at home,…

It certainly doesn't feel like craftsmanship has gained any kind of higher social standing in our time though. The Zeitgeist of the modern times seems to be one of 'try to do the cheapest sellable thing while paying people the least possible'.

Real craftsmanship, the kind that leaves you in awe and feels like an exceptional display of human capacity, seems to be relegated, from my point of view, to a minority of well-off hobbyists who are already free from work and can do what they want without worrying about paying bills.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#333

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:07 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #258

GPerson wrote: post #200

Programming is nice because you have lots of different scales of structure to think about, and your program slowly comes together. You see it improving over time as a result of your efforts. You also build your skills and learn. It’s really a nice activity. AI systems basically change that whole formula. I’m not sure how people get joy out of constantly vibe coding new projects. It feels like binge watching Netflix s…

> I’m not sure how people get joy out of constantly vibe coding new projects. It feels like binge watching Netflix shows. I get joy out of it because it solves actual problems I have that I don't have time to solve manually, or don't want to. E.g. I just recently had Codex add a mechanism for two-level virtual desktops because I wanted groups of them. An hour later I had two-level virtual desktops in my wm that worke…

[deleted]

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#334

Post by Brian_K_White » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:10 PM UTC

kypro wrote: post #314

gliall_err wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a sophomoric oversimplification. The US and Europe might have lost a lot of craftsmanship knowledge at a social level. Yet, what is left is so far ahead of what has ever existed in countries in South America for example. And China has gained a lot. Witness that youtuber trying to make grill brushes in the US. These differences have an impact in terms of opportunities and competition. It's easy to sit at home,…

> Look closer and you'll see that what happened in the UK in the 1700s was in fact enabled by a long and deep tradition of craftsmanship that only got enriched by the rise of new power sources. Craftsmanship today is vastly more advanced than it ever was before industry. I suspect the horses are healthier and stronger than in the 1700s too. I'm not sure I understand your point? I'd agree that the niche of extremely h…

Craftsmanship exists everywhere and is as they say vastly superior, or at least more capable, than ever.

Every random business has some machine that puts caps on bottles or something, and these things are ridiculously better designed, engineered, and fabricated than ever before, because the knowledge and tools available to the designer and fabricator are better than ever before.

You are surrounded by things that are insanely well made by all previous standards. Even the crappy stuff that you don't think of as well-made, because it is junk compared to everything else, still has many aspects that are almost magic.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#335

Post by boomlinde » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:17 PM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #275

NoboruWataya wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the great things about hobbies is that you can enjoy them whatever way you want. But honestly is it not more accurate to say that you are now a hobbyist prompter, rather than a hobbyist programmer? I get the "its just a tool" mentality and I guess LLMs can be used that way, but if you are not touching a line of code yourself then it seems less analogous to using power steering and more analogous to just taking…

What I really don't understand how differently it seems that AI for programming and for anything else is treated. I don't think there is insignificant group who would say that using LLM to write a book does not make you an author. Or make a song musician. Or draw a picture a painter or artist. This just somewhat baffles me... Or maybe the LLM for programming people all believe that you are as much artist if you use A…

I've seen people here insist that LLMs enable everyone to make music or art. It's diametrically opposed from my own view that making something is the process of making something, neither the result of nor the motivation for that process.

My retort is usually a variation of one I've already posted in this thread: they do that to the same extent that taxis enable everyone to drive, which is something most people will intuitively understand as nonsense, even if they've given clear instructions to the driver and even though they've arrived at the intended destination. If you aren't driving, you aren't driving. If anything, the taxi service enables more people not to drive.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#336

Post by Applejinx » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:19 PM UTC

curtisblaine wrote: post #250

alkonaut wrote: post #224

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

I might be weird, but I love phases 2 to 5 and I hate phase 1 with a passion. I hate speaking with people to see what their problems are. I want to solve problems, not user surveys. And all the itches I have are either already solved, not itchy enough or too wide / ambitious to approach them solo. If LLMs solved exclusively 1 and told me "this problem is actually valuable, go and solve it", I would be the happiest pe…

Even if you're entreprenurial, LLMs are useless for this.

You can't go really hard unless you can come up with something people weren't expecting, but when they discover it they want it. You can't just sit around waiting for people to want things properly. That's extremely passive.

The point being, the idea of using LLMs to find what people already passively want is itself flawed, even if you like marketing and selling to people. It's a really fundamental problem with the idea.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#337

Post by GPerson » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:27 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #258

GPerson wrote: post #200

Programming is nice because you have lots of different scales of structure to think about, and your program slowly comes together. You see it improving over time as a result of your efforts. You also build your skills and learn. It’s really a nice activity. AI systems basically change that whole formula. I’m not sure how people get joy out of constantly vibe coding new projects. It feels like binge watching Netflix s…

> I’m not sure how people get joy out of constantly vibe coding new projects. It feels like binge watching Netflix shows. I get joy out of it because it solves actual problems I have that I don't have time to solve manually, or don't want to. E.g. I just recently had Codex add a mechanism for two-level virtual desktops because I wanted groups of them. An hour later I had two-level virtual desktops in my wm that worke…

For me that’s a slippery slope. It’s not really clear what parts of my hobby project are the good parts and what parts are unfulfilling. When I start including AI too much I end up feeling that none of it is fulfilling. When I do things manually I feel pride in the details however, even though those same details on another day would make me feel like I’m wasting my precious life.

I spent 2 months having Opus build a demo for a project I dreamt of for 15 years, but somehow now I can’t feel interested in it. I’m trying to avoid this. A good use case for me has been using AI to help me acquire all primary source documentation on a topic and then prepare a curated sequence of study based on a small demo I’d like to build.

Keep in mind I’m talking about how I’m approaching creative programming in my personal free time.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#338

Post by Tade0 » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:27 PM UTC

shiomiru wrote: post #251

alkonaut wrote: post #224

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

There's also the economic problem that programmers had until recently been highly regarded because steps 2-3 were hard. "Open source" solved this partially by utilizing the labor such (relatively) well-paid people gave away "for the love of it", but it was not nearly enough to put most out of work. Now there is a plagiarism machine built on top of decades of this work that seemingly solves 3 and promises to solve 2 (…

I'm not concerned. Never in my life have I experienced stakeholders just going "hmm, yes - this is enough software for our purposes - we won't be needing your services any more".

There's always another feature that can be implemented or a new problem to be solved. Tools only ever accelerated the pace at which we were able to follow this insatiable hunger for more software.

Right now people are getting fired left and right because all the money that used to be spent on staff now goes to build more data centers and also because cutting corporate expenses is in vogue now.

This too shall pass and with demographics as they are and young people getting discouraged from pursuing this field I believe long term my position is safe.

Also a huge chunk of what AI company CEOs say is just pure bullshit that they only say because they need that sweet, sweet investor money. Bullshit writes a check that eventually must be cashed.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#339

Post by jatora » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:28 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #258

GPerson wrote: post #200

Programming is nice because you have lots of different scales of structure to think about, and your program slowly comes together. You see it improving over time as a result of your efforts. You also build your skills and learn. It’s really a nice activity. AI systems basically change that whole formula. I’m not sure how people get joy out of constantly vibe coding new projects. It feels like binge watching Netflix s…

> I’m not sure how people get joy out of constantly vibe coding new projects. It feels like binge watching Netflix shows. I get joy out of it because it solves actual problems I have that I don't have time to solve manually, or don't want to. E.g. I just recently had Codex add a mechanism for two-level virtual desktops because I wanted groups of them. An hour later I had two-level virtual desktops in my wm that worke…

This. And the AI detractors in this thread are the same I think, and are virtue signalling.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#340

Post by ModernMech » Thu, Aug 06, 2026, 12:29 PM UTC

shiomiru wrote: post #302

pigpop wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm just old but people talking about being in programming for "status" or to be "highly regarded" really irks me. I'd rather see the entire field burnt to the ground and replaced by robots than to have it become a status profession like lawyering.

I meant it as an euphemism for "it's universally sought after (i.e., you'll probably find a job)". Few would think being a programmer gives you some kind of special "social status"; it's always been a "nerd" hobby that happened to pay (relatively) well. (I guess by now you have a solid retirement plan; maybe if the field had been burnt to the ground while you were younger, you'd have had a different opinion.)

Being a good programmer gives you special social status amongst people who value programming. You only have to look at how people talk about others as slop coders and seek to expand their coding reputations. Those people are the most threatened by AI because of how it implicates their carefully crafted personas as coding gurus and keepers of knowledge.