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To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

musings.martyn.berlin

331–339 of 339 posts

Re: To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

#331
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perfectly possible for software to enable people to do things they couldn't do before without putting anyone out of work. I'm sorry you're struggling to imagine such a thing.

As opposed to hiring someone to do it? Or rather, that software not competing with the wider market as a whole? Those areas are exceedingly small in the web-dev space. Or even technology as a whole. I recently used AI to make me a custom song for a silly thing. It put no one out of work and I'd not hire someone to make such a thing. But the fact the tech exists to enable such a thing means its absolutely putting musi…

An example:

Retail investors largely didn't exist. Digital retail trading platforms greatly expanded the pool of retail traders, which actually increases the demand for brokers (as in, people trained for the purpose of facilitating financial transactions). Nobody using Robinhood would have hired a broker. Now, thousands of such people work servicing their accounts.

I have no love to for finance industry, much less fintech; i would accept practically any argument that the finance sector as a whole, or retail trading as an idea, is a bad thing for working class people. But i don't see how creating a whole new market for people that didn't previously exist, and which increases overall demand for the specific specialized labor in question, has removed jobs from the pool in aggregate.

I don't think this applies for example with "well former shop clerks are now Amazon delivery drivers" -- that may well be true (or less than true) but still materially worse for everyone involved, etc.

I just don't accept, as axiom, that every every single technology has had an exclusively negative effect on overall employment prospects.

For clarity, I'm very much a socialist, i have no issue with the idea fundamentally that technology in the hands of capitalists is detrimental to the working class writ large in basically all cases. I just take umbrage with the assumption that it's impossible to work in tech without facilitating such things. Much of my work, I'm happy to say, has been about helping people do their jobs better; it hasn't been directed at making them do more in less time, reduce headcount, or some abstract efficiency. It's been to help people do the jobs they already have to do, more effectively. A job a person still has to do, but can be done less stressfully with help from technology.

I wish every thing I've ever touched was such, admittedly it isn't. But i think there's lots of places where that might still be true: aircraft engineers? Pilots? (Fewer trains i guess but that's mostly a US phenomenon). There are administrative jobs working systems that couldn't exist without "automation" as in they would not have existed before the computer created the system.

Idk. I can be swayed, i just get sick of this implication that people working for a living have influence over their employers. They don't, by design, except for managers maybe (but I'm not and never will be one of those, either)

Re: To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

#332
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of pre-history, anyone living in a western country is in a post-scarcity society. Practically no one starves. The murder rate is down by crazy numbers. I'm not sure how much of a problem racism was at that time, but you wouldn't have had many chances to meet people from different haplogroups in any case. The abundance created by industrial society is not distributed "evenly" or "fairly" but the b…

Especially now that we have magic boxes to answer any question and speak any language

Yes, now that we have "magic boxes" replacing all of our knowledge workers and experts with inaccurate and half-hallucinated babble, deskilling an entire generation and gaslighting them into parasociality and schizophrenia it's just like Star Trek.

Re: To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as good person or evil person anywhere else other than in human society. It’s just a brain fart to make you cooperate and evolutionary survive. You don’t need to listen to this primitive instinct. You can just choose consciously what you think is the best. Do not share or propagate or promote this view however. Our society only works thanks to most people being slaves to these tremors. Sometime…

> You don’t need to listen to this primitive instinct. You can just choose consciously what you think is the best. Which is why we have jails.

Which is why my only enemy and true life long hate target is the government. Not that I do not appreciate its function, but the only solution to eat a cake and have it too is to become politician and be the government.

Become part of the system, get it to work for you. Seems like very popular hobby in some circles

Re: To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as good person or evil person anywhere else other than in human society. It’s just a brain fart to make you cooperate and evolutionary survive. You don’t need to listen to this primitive instinct. You can just choose consciously what you think is the best. Do not share or propagate or promote this view however. Our society only works thanks to most people being slaves to these tremors. Sometime…

"Our society only works thanks to most people being slaves to these tremors." If everyone defects, the system breaks down. Morality is good and it is actually logical - it solves the prisoners dilemma and pushes cooperation instead of defection. It also reduces harm and has lots of other good properties. I feel that how we affect others matters, but even if you're just a sociopath doing the math, defecting is a strat…

Morality is very good, please always obey its principles.

You must be aware though that some people will stab you in the back if the reward is bigger than widely understood consequences. I mean no wonder society is wired to hate that, this is a true critical code execution vulnerability that will never be patched.

This is also the reason why we have decentralised governance systems such as democracy. It isn’t about preventing psychopaths, it’s about pitting them against each other.

It’s not about having zero bombs. It’s about having enough bombs to destroy everything if someone drops a single one.

That’s the pattern and framework of how to tame warring monkeys into skyscraper builders.

When an earthquake forms a mountain it doesn’t do this consciously from what we know. The same is true for skyscrapers. Of course on an individual level there is an illusion of signing papers, a development plan. But what really happened was two ambitions colliding in massive clash and the resulting force just so happens to point up in the sky.

Re: To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don’t need to listen to this primitive instinct. You can just choose consciously what you think is the best. Which is why we have jails.

Which is why my only enemy and true life long hate target is the government. Not that I do not appreciate its function, but the only solution to eat a cake and have it too is to become politician and be the government. Become part of the system, get it to work for you. Seems like very popular hobby in some circles

Personally that is not for me, but there certainly exist people who follow that path. But it is a dangerous path, take too much and there is a popular revolution and its off with your head (or more realistically you piss off the wrong person and get in some sort of trouble).

Society is a dynamic system with lots of forces acting on it. Everything is balanced with various controls to stop any one person from taking too much advantage.

Re: To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying cancer is perfectly normal.

Is cancer not normal? 40-45% of people will get cancer in their lives. It's estimated that 25-30% of people, globally, enjoy hip-hop. Cancer is 50% more common than hip-hop. Is hip-hop normal?

So you're saying, you don't mind having cancer?

Re: To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a libertarian stance on morality is great unless its actually important to take a stand. It's the difference between "I would never own slaves" and being an abolitionist. I think it's pretty reasonable to expect others to agree and align with my personal morals around slavery.

To me, slavery is an ethical issue and transcends morals, but setting that aside: You have to follow your own moral compass and do what's workable. If you're compelled to take a stand, take a stand. Just know that you can't force other people to change their morals. People who follow this line of thought to its extreme end up killing people who disagree with them. This is how you get everything from anarchist bombing…

I'm not sure why you're setting slavery aside. It's my whole point. Do you think the Union should have conceded the civil war because "you can't force other people to change their morals?"

Re: To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is cancer not normal? 40-45% of people will get cancer in their lives. It's estimated that 25-30% of people, globally, enjoy hip-hop. Cancer is 50% more common than hip-hop. Is hip-hop normal?

So you're saying, you don't mind having cancer?

I didn't say that. I didn't even come close to saying that.

I am saying that when 40-50% of people will experience something, it is statistically very normal. In fact, it's technically "likely".

In most cases, 40% is significantly better than Vegas odds.

Re: To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks

#339
post #24

It's funny, I have the opposite experience of everyone around me hating AI. I'm not aggressively pro-AI around them at all but you aren't allowed to have any positive or nuanced opinion of the tech. I'm used to it though, I've been excited by the concept of AI since reading about Turing and such as a child 20 years ago. The idea has always been met with negativity, IMO because people want to feel that they have a par…

> The idea has always been met with negativity, IMO because people want to feel that they have a part of themselves that is beyond nature and has a "special" place in the universe. This is actually a big part of why being pro-AI is met with negativity today. As someone who's using and building with AI and also experiences the "anti" movement, you've chosen a pretty condescending minority of the reasons why they disli…

There's no use being so negative; The genie will not get back into the bottle.

Luddites, the whole of them.

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