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We've made the world too complicated

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Re: We've made the world too complicated

#331

Post by wallst07 »

carlosjobim wrote: post #122
globnomulous wrote: post #106

Extinctions followed homo sapiens across the planet millennia before the emergence of the technologies that you seem to think make the world 'complicated.' The Greek work biblos, for book, derives from the name of the region of the Levant (Bublos) that produces much of the best paper in the ancient world, until people denuded it, turning it into a desert. Iran and Afghanistan were green when the Hittites and Babyloni…

> Iran and Afghanistan were green when the Hittites and Babylonians were in charge, if I remember correctly. What would you say is the secret for people who want to live a long and fulfilling life?

Create a family: Pursue a life that brings others happiness, serve them.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#333

Post by stephen_g »

moichael wrote: post #330
probablypower wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every solution engineers a greater problem. Solving horse poop with cars -> Climate change

"AI will solve climate change" -> Datacenters that cause more climate change

I’ve heard this idea but don’t believe it was actually a serious claim? Surely it’s only ever been more of a post-hoc PR kind of justification for the massive energy use that nobody genuinely believes?

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#334

Post by wallst07 »

qsera wrote: post #324
wallst07 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are still stretching, nobody is claiming suffering doesn't exist. But to compare modern medical care and nutrition to even 100-200 years ago and say it was better in the past is quite... insane. You can't cherrypick specific problems now and then compare to the entire existence in whatever before times you think were better. To put it another way... I would easily trade being below average income/class now, to to…

>But to compare modern medical care and nutrition to even 100-200 years ago and say it was better in the past is quite... insane. No one is saying that though. I am saying that if the price for that is that everyone is more sick, then it is not a better thing.

Ok, I agree if that is your hypothetical. But we have t define "if its happening" and what "everyone is more sick" means relative to before microplastics, or whatever your argument is.

I get your point, just disagree that more people are sick now (depending on the definition of sick). If you die, you're not sick anymore.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#335

Post by zdc1 »

artyom wrote: post #205

Invariably, this "simpler life" type of reasoning is unmistakably the product of an urbanite. There's nothing romantic in progress-adverse, ostracized, uncivilized lifestyles. There's only a small subset of people that would really find it preferable in practice. In the best of cases it implies grueling non-stop hard work. And still you're one bad winter away from being obliterated. The world is a complex place, but…

Yes. We can complain that technology is "too complicated" but so is the human brain, consciousness, and every other biological system which we have failed to fully understand.

Knowing that we are surrounded by systems we can never know is both a gift and a curse, but offering a chicken to the sky god for more rain is not a world I'd like to go back to.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#336

Post by lotsofpulp »

ian_j_butler wrote: post #234
lotsofpulp wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many/most people don’t, and haven’t for a very long time. Being afraid of losing one’s job is quite a step up from being afraid of a rival tribe ransacking your village. Or a predatory animal. Or bacterial infections. Obviously, things could be better. But they could be much, much worse.

> Being afraid of losing one’s job is quite a step up from being afraid of a rival tribe ransacking your village. Or a predatory animal. Or bacterial infections. Obviously, things could be better. But they could be much, much worse. If you talk to people, I think you'll find there are an increasing number who don't actually agree with your idea of worse. It's a question of comforts vs agency. Victims of slavery or di…

Those people are free to move to Afghanistan or Somalia or the Congo. I doubt they will.

> Do you want to fight and perhaps die in an desperate battle with a deadly but essentially honest viking invader?

No, real life is not a hero wish fulfillment movie.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#337

Post by timacles »

pyrale wrote: post #329
hariseldom wrote: post #305

> I used to want to do many things. Make great art, build great machines, solve important issues. Maybe our greatest gift to the world is to do as little as possible. To look at the birds, feel the wind and the water in our own hands, and ... nothing more. Eat when we are hungry, laugh when we are happy, cry when we are empty. And maybe that is the greatest gift to ourselves as well. This is not always true, it depen…

I guess the issue is that, on average, our society looks more like Phillip Morris or Meta than it looks like a school or an hospital. And, most of all, the people our society promotes to steer itself tend to be the kind that thrives at Meta rather than in a school.

To be more precise, the late stage capitalism phase we are in has designed itself around destroying anything that contributes to society.

Nothing can exist without making a profit. If there is something that is useful, our system makes sure it will be exploited for maximum profit which will in turn destroy that very things.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#338

Post by pcthrowaway »

stiglitz wrote: post #162
keiferski wrote: post #49

I think this feeling of everything being too complex is a natural consequence of work that is done for long-term abstract ends, rather than immediate and local ones. At least I think it is for me. Working remotely for an international software company is great for its lifestyle flexibility, but sometimes I just want to be a baker, chef, bike repairman, etc. that solves an immediate problem for a real person standing…

Described by Marx (in too many words, unfortunately) as “alienation”

Marx's concept of alienation isn't really about being removed from the product one toils on by abstraction, it was about being removed from the result of one's labour because the end to which that labour is performed is enrichment of the bourgeoisie, not personal or societal enrichment.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#339

Post by petre »

CriticalRegion wrote: post #298
petre wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others won't stop it, the'll just invade later on. Look at Lebanon for instance.

Is your argument that Lebanon chose to stop advancing technologically and got invaded by a technologically superior nation for that?

They didn't choose, they're a failed state that others are using to attack their neighbours from.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#340

Post by qsera »

wallst07 wrote: post #334
qsera wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But to compare modern medical care and nutrition to even 100-200 years ago and say it was better in the past is quite... insane. No one is saying that though. I am saying that if the price for that is that everyone is more sick, then it is not a better thing.

Ok, I agree if that is your hypothetical. But we have t define "if its happening" and what "everyone is more sick" means relative to before microplastics, or whatever your argument is. I get your point, just disagree that more people are sick now (depending on the definition of sick). If you die, you're not sick anymore.

>just disagree that more people are sick now..

There are more sickness inducing things in air, water and food. And it is not slowing down. We are adding more and more of it..Look up "Regrettable substitution", and that is exactly as hopeless as it sounds...

So regulations are not doing shit.

So given that, and the basic implication that consuming more sickness inducing stuff would make more people sick, why do you need additional proof that people will get more and more sick going forward?

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