Earlier quoted context omitted.
The dominant cause of pedestrian fatalities is not "pedestrian steps right in front of a moving car," but things like "driver didn't see pedestrian in middle of crosswalk" (usually because, e.g., looking instead for vehicle traffic to make a right turn on red). Sure, it's possible for a pedestrian to be at fault, but even if they step out from behind an occluded object, if a driver is fast enough to kill them, then t…
> Sure, it's possible for a pedestrian to be at fault, but even if they step out from behind an occluded object, if a driver is fast enough to kill them, then the driver is almost certainly already at fault because they were driving faster than conditions warranted. That's not true: 30km/h is enough to kill, and that's a very sedate speed. Whether we like it or not, pedestrians and cyclists have to also follow the ru…
California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
331–340 of 371 posts
Re: California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it's possible for a pedestrian to be at fault When I use a crosswalk, I wait until the cars stop before I cross. It's nuts to step into it assuming the cars will stop.
In Germany it's illegal not to stop if a pedestrian is close to the crosswalk.
Re: California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
The reason that’s a news story is because the outcome is unusual. When things are normal and happening all the time, they’re not reported as abnormal outcomes. The world is a big place. Being able to think of a counter-example does not negate a general point.
Is it? Laura Bush ran a stop sign and killed her friend. No charges. Caitlyn Jenner hit a car and pushed it into on coming traffic killed someone. No charges. I can keep going and going.
Re: California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it's possible for a pedestrian to be at fault When I use a crosswalk, I wait until the cars stop before I cross. It's nuts to step into it assuming the cars will stop.
In Germany it's illegal not to stop if a pedestrian is close to the crosswalk.
Re: California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There isn't a generation alive that didn't grow up with this reality in these places. Less than 5% of the world’s population have to deal with them. We don’t need to aim anywhere near perfect- good enough would be a vast improvement
Cool beans. We seem to be sufficiently agreeable. Suppose we set forth on straightening out the laws (because the existing laws are bullshit compared to reality, and they're not even made of paper these days so they're easy to adjust), while concurrently working on a better solution than a 4-way stop. What do we aim for? I love roundabouts, but as-implemented they're very often big-enough to create property-acquisiti…
Pretty sad really
Re: California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder what happens legally if a biker plows into the Waymo, Casey Neistat style. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ
I don't think you are legally allowed to deliberately crash into things even if they are annoying. The law in that video - ticketing cyclists for not being in the bike lane - surprised me. There's nothing like that in the UK.
Re: California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
No. The traffic rules for trams or tram stop positions should be adjusted and people in Amsterdam should be educated to behave around trams, i.e. in traffic in general if they want fewer deaths. There are literally marks on every step of their path "tram is going through here, coming from there", so those that die anyway should be the ones at fault. It's horrible that they die, but banning trams is not a valid respon…
You sound like someone trying to justify guns. "People should be educated to behave round them". No. Trams in Amsterdam are very dangerous and replacing them with long busses makes everything better. Tram is not the safest form of transport, that would be the bus. As stated trams are way more deadly than cars. And no, trams are not marked. Not in Amsterdam. Trams share the exact same path as pedestrians and cyclists,…
Your analogy about guns is irrelevant because all the negative aspects of advocating for guns are missing here, while education is always helpful. I am advocating for the safest and the most efficient option for everyone. And I said why is it so. You only mentioned braking time/distance without any evidence about buses being less lethal in the long run when substituting trams:
The same braking time can be achieved by decreasing the trams' speed (30 km/h to 20 km/h) around pedestrians and cyclists, which is more efficient than removing the tram network, making space for buses, buying and maintaining twice as many buses for the same throughput, and replacing the asphalt quite often. Keeping the trams will decrease the likelihood of pedestrians and bicyclists being clipped by bulky long buses (double the number of encounters compared to trams), while still making it easier for everyone to know where the tram may come from whenever they see the tracks (and it can't swerve, so a person knows exactly how to move in a close encounter), so that they can steer clear of its path and only cross it after they make sure there is no tram passing. Introducing the buses either reintroduces toxic exhaust gases, or buses' weight advantage gets massively decreased by carrying the batteries, while increasing the tires' and asphalt damage and shedding. Also, it doesn't mean that the trend of increasing recklessness won't continue around "safer" vehicles: I bet people were more wary of trams before, just like they are in other cities with trams.
Recklessness and abandonment of personal responsibility for own safety shouldn't be a reason for everyone else to bend over backwards. There is enough of a safety net for the wannabe Darwin award winners as-is, with trams in place. Decreasing speed, moving the stations ahead of intersections, and raising awareness that the trams are still dangerous is a reasonable change of policy. Even a pilot-project driving buses on a dangerous tram lane could be reasonable, to gather data. Blindly overhauling the whole network without a strong indicator that it's even a move in the right direction, just to maybe find a way to prolong the lives of those who themselves don't really care about their lives.
Btw, visually impaired and those of bad hearing generally know very well to use their other senses to stay safe in this as well as even worse conditions. And are better off with rails marking the trams' path (or even other markings, if introduced), than relying on the buses' braking distance.
And please avoid pretending to be dumb and saying that the trams are more deadly than the cars, without taking into account how separated the cars' roads are from pedestrians' and cyclists paths as well as their passenger throughput in Amsterdam and their speed limits. If Amsterdam had the same throughput of passengers in buses instead of trams, with buses equally mixing with pedestrians and cyclists, I bet the situation wouldn't be much different, with you equally fixated only on absolute numbers multiplier, asking for trams.
Btw, why don't you ask for cars to replace the trams? Buses, despite not being as mixed with pedestrians as trams are, racking in kilometers after midnight and between cities like cars do, still cause 15x more deaths per km than cars do.
Re: California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it's possible for a pedestrian to be at fault When I use a crosswalk, I wait until the cars stop before I cross. It's nuts to step into it assuming the cars will stop.
In Germany it's illegal not to stop if a pedestrian is close to the crosswalk.
Or they are looking at their phones standing on the wheelchair ramp or chatting with someone, kinda going in, maybe, maybe not, and when it looks like they’ll be crossing the street parallel to yours and you start going they change their minds and cross diagonally in front of you?
Because I’m all for pedestrian safety and prioritization. But SF has gone so “safe” that it’s back to unsafe. Runners will join an intersection from behind a tree in front of a car that had stopped and was starting to go without even looking up. People join a crossing looking down or away from the flow of traffic, it’s insane to me. I find that kids cross streets much better than adults here. A kid will stop, look, check if they were seen and then proceed.
Re: California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Sure, it's possible for a pedestrian to be at fault, but even if they step out from behind an occluded object, if a driver is fast enough to kill them, then the driver is almost certainly already at fault because they were driving faster than conditions warranted. That's not true: 30km/h is enough to kill, and that's a very sedate speed. Whether we like it or not, pedestrians and cyclists have to also follow the ru…
What sounds sedate to you is not encoded in any rules and certainly wasn't considered sedate when the laws were written in most jurisdictions.
Re: California to begin ticketing driverless cars that violate traffic laws
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it? Laura Bush ran a stop sign and killed her friend. No charges. Caitlyn Jenner hit a car and pushed it into on coming traffic killed someone. No charges. I can keep going and going.
These people you listed are wealthy and powerful, maybe blame the justice system catering to the rich instead of regulations for car crashes.