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DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

simonwillison.net

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Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#331

Post by skeledrew »

eikenberry wrote: post #271
GCUMstlyHarmls wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I even got a warning on my OpenAI account. This is kind of terrifying to me, regularly. No real manner of recourse to normal people without a following, potential exclusion from real fundamental tooling. Imagine OpenAI goes on to buy 20 companies and now you cant use Figma, Next, whatever just because you once tripped some very foggy line somehow. Not just OpenAI but the entire ecosystem is so... hard to read. I wa…

Open models running locally is the answer. Relying on proprietary, closed software always puts that company's priorities above your own when using their software. You have given up control. While running them locally presently doesn't make sense economically, you don't need to run them locally to address this issue. There is a lot of competition in hosting open models and you have a variety of services to choose from…

It'll be a while yet before open models that're good enough will be viable for local use. Heck I've been trying to use the Qwen 3.5 39B A3B on my system, which is modest but no slouch, and have only been able to get ~4.5 tok/s after optimization, and it really runs my system red (fans instantly go crazy). It's just not practical for serious work.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#332

Post by redanddead »

oneseven wrote: post #140
sanex wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have an enterprise cursor account so I can try all the mainstream models. Using composer 2 on our own code which I obviously have the source code for I couldn't get it to turn on a debug flag to bypass license checks while I was troubleshooting something. Infuriating. It was like that old Patrick from SpongeBob meme. I don't understand why we would turn the models into law enforcement officers. Things that are ill…

They're probably worried about liability. Let's say that Oracle finds out you reverse engineered their DB using Gemini. You can be sure they will sue Google. Not just for providing the tools, but you could make the argument that it's actually Gemini doing the reverse engineering, and on Google's hardware no less.

they're very worried about liability, it used to be a small thing, now it's as important as being on the frontier

sad to see, bc China doesn't give a fuck about liability, this is a structural disadvantage

the labs don't feel very protected by government, meanwhile the chinese government is yet again fostering protectionism

american industry keeps getting fucked by dubious lawmakers

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#334

Post by gmerc »

Reviving1514 wrote: post #61
gmerc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself. I found switching from Opus 4.7 to be completely painless and in fact, due to the reliability of Anthropic’s API, less of a friction despite slower response times. Zero issues on a large mono repro

What provider are you using? I have it a shot through open router and saw some weird half formed words coming through occasionally, would love to switch over and give it a proper go

Direct API

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#335

Post by [deleted] »

eckelhesten wrote: post #312
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not everyone uses your data. There are providers who very explicitly do not collect or use your data.

Sure, and I won’t collect or otherwise store your credit card info if you send it to me. Trust me bro :) No but seriously, I am astonished by the level of trust you have for these for-profit companies. I’ll remind you of this quote: ”Zuckerberg: People just submitted it. Zuckerberg: I don't know why. Zuckerberg: They "trust me" Zuckerberg: Dumb fucks”

[deleted]

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#336

Post by fy20 »

> DeepSeek-V4-Flash is the cheapest of the small models, beating even OpenAI’s GPT-5.4 Nano.

GPT-5 Nano should really be in the list too. It is $0.05 input and $0.40 output - and half that if you use the Flex tier.

Last week I upgraded an old batch process from GPT-4.1 Nano, and GPT-5 Nano worked just as well as GPT-5.4 Nano but at a much lower cost.

As always OpenAIs naming is really bad, GPT-5.4 Nano is a different model, its not a straight upgrade from GPT-5 Nano.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#337

Post by csomar »

Here is a comparison for SVG generation for the top models: https://codeinput.com/s/5KEGl1e3rB3

Open AI has GPT-5.5 Pro which only difference, I think, is in the price. Billing is from open router but the breakdown is roughly

    - GPT 5.5 Pro: Super expensive it makes no sense (cost is around $2)
    - Gemini/Opus: $0.2/$0.1. Opus is cheaper as it consumed less tokens
    - DeepSeek/GLM: $0.019/$0.021 10-5 times cheaper than Gemini and Opus
The example Simon generated just shows that larger models don't necessarily produce better results.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#340

Post by dotancohen »

hvb2 wrote: post #206
sanex wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need that lawsuit to happen already so we can establish precedent. The person in the driver's seat of the Tesla should be at fault. The engineer using the llm should be at fault. The person behind the gun not the manufacturer should be at fault.

> The person in the driver's seat of the Tesla should be at fault. I don't think this is a good analogy. For Tesla right now it might fly. However, when their software gets to waymo level of autonomy, I would expect liability to shift to the manufacturer. If anything, I think that would be the true proof of a company trusting their software to allow for autonomous driving

I believe that Mercedes does offer manufacturer liability.
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