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Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

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Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#331

Post by Rebelgecko »

pandaman wrote: post #325
Rebelgecko wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, slow down to 2-5 mph but not coming to a complete stops solves this problem. I usually try to time it so that I slow down alongside a car and we can run the stop sign at the same speed. If you assert your right to use the road, cars won't try to take advantage of your size/acceleration as much, especially if you have another car run interference for you. YMMV if you live somewhere where it's common for cars to a…

This sounds like a survivorship bias, you imagine that people who blow stops won't do that if you don't stop but, people who did the same on a bike and were t-boned by a car might not be in a good condition to post about their experience anymore. Anyways, even if you are 100% right and not stopping at stop on a bike will prevent people blowing stop completely (and people who have the right of way will also yield to y…

>how is it safer than to stop and proceed when there is no traffic across?

Generally, on a bike you want to be predictable. If you do something weird, like not going when it's your turn, you're increasing your risk. And in many situations if you wait for there to be no cars at a stop sign, you're going to end up holding up cars behind you and be on the receiving end of road rage, or drivers behaving recklessly to get around you. Plus you may be waiting literally hours for all the traffic to dissipate, and I prefer to be home before sunset because riding at night introduces other safety issues.

Anecdotally I've never felt at risk of being t-boned when doing an Idaho stop, but it happens regularly when I do a complete stop (in part because it's unpredictable - drivers don't come to a complete stop at the line so they misbehave and don't know how to respond when they see a cyclist stop).

Beyond my anecdata, there's plenty of more rigorous studies showing the benefits of the Idaho stop.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#332

Post by petre »

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #96
spankalee wrote: post #59

Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. Given that human drivers stop in bike lanes, Waymo then has a tradeoff: 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic…

Cities who want to keep cars out of bike lanes should stop offering “mom says we have bike lanes at home” repainting of streets. Create a curb and raise the bike lanes. It’s the only safe solution. I understand this is not realistic in a lot of scenarios but it is basically the only way you can achieve actual safety short of cement separators at the road level, which is basically a curb anyway. There’s just no realit…

What's wrong with lane separators¹? Bollards are dangerous for cyclists.

Rised bike lanes are also parked onto. I had the displasure of sliding on reentry when a car was blocking the raised bike lane. Next time I'd rather stop and argue with the driver. Also you get to enjoy going up and fown ramps all of the time.

1. https://orcacivil.com.au/products/traffic-management-product...

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#333

Post by TulliusCicero »

slibhb wrote: post #253
TulliusCicero wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers generally don't follow traffic laws. They text on their phone while they drive. They routinely go over the speed limit. They go through red lights. They go into or park in bike lanes. They tailgate other drivers. They don't signal before turning or changing lanes.

Drivers generally follow the rules. It's considered bad form when they don't, and they're occasionally ticketed. This doesn't apply to bikers. No one even expects them to follow the rules. I'm not anti-bike. I bike a bit and I got hit by a car last year. Some crackhead turned left across the opposite lane right into me. I'm just reporting what I see -- bikers do not generally follow the rules, and I find this interes…

> Drivers generally follow the rules.

No, they don't. They break the rules all the goddamn time. Have you ever been on an American freeway? Most people are going above the speed limit, myself included.

Do you think most drivers give the legally required amount of space in front of their car while driving, especially on the freeway? It's not even close. Do people signal for the legally required amount of time before changing lanes? Again, not close for most drivers.

> I'm just reporting what I see

What you're actually experiencing is that you implicitly accept the status quo of certain rules being ignored for driving, because driving itself is more common (both for you and in general). But biking is different, it's more obscure, so the rule breaking stands out more.

This is very typical of cultures anywhere that driving is more common than biking, which is...well, most places really.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#334

Post by pandaman »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #331
pandaman wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a survivorship bias, you imagine that people who blow stops won't do that if you don't stop but, people who did the same on a bike and were t-boned by a car might not be in a good condition to post about their experience anymore. Anyways, even if you are 100% right and not stopping at stop on a bike will prevent people blowing stop completely (and people who have the right of way will also yield to y…

>how is it safer than to stop and proceed when there is no traffic across? Generally, on a bike you want to be predictable. If you do something weird, like not going when it's your turn, you're increasing your risk. And in many situations if you wait for there to be no cars at a stop sign, you're going to end up holding up cars behind you and be on the receiving end of road rage, or drivers behaving recklessly to get…

>Generally, on a bike you want to be predictable. If you do something weird, like not going when it's your turn, you're increasing your risk.

Absolutely agree. As same as going when it's not your turn. But, first and foremost, you should not be going across a moving vehicle. Even another bike. Just falling off your bike can cause pretty serious trauma. Why do this?

>Plus you may be waiting literally hours for all the traffic to dissipate, and I prefer to be home before sunset because riding at night introduces other safety issues.

I don't know where in California you live that nobody stops at the stop signs, but I lived in LA and cars generally stop at those. You literally need to wait few seconds for the cars to to stop and proceed in most cities in the US.

>Anecdotally I've never felt at risk of being t-boned when doing an Idaho stop, but it happens regularly when I do a complete stop (in part because it's unpredictable - drivers don't come to a complete stop at the line so they misbehave and don't know how to respond when they see a cyclist stop).

I know that feeling. Like people riding against traffic feel safer because they see approaching cars yet regularly get t-boned by the cars not expecting anything coming at them against traffic.

>Beyond my anecdata, there's plenty of more rigorous studies showing the benefits of the Idaho stop

Like what? I tried to search again and found this [1] apparently Idaho is not even in top half of the states in cyclist safety (or "friendliness" whatever that means).

1. https://bikeleague.org/bfa/states/state-report-cards/

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#335

Post by petre »

monster_truck wrote: post #249
WillAdams wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing which I think would really help with bike lanes would be to standardize on placing underground utilities beneath them --- they'd be less expensive to dig up than a roadway structured for cars, and when maintenance is necessary, a cyclist can easily be diverted either onto the roadway (if staying on the bike) or to the sidewalk (if temporarily dismounting).

The width of a bike lane and its margins is not nearly enough space to safely trench deep enough with the equipment they already have to reach most things they need to tear roads up for. Even modest water mains can be 4ft in diameter, drainage and sewage twice that (in flood prone areas)

4 ft is great for a one way bike lane.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#336

Post by pandaman »

ok_dad wrote: post #330
pandaman wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Pulling into the bike lane for 30 seconds causes bikers to have to unsafely pull around the car Or, hear me out, they could stop if passing the car is unsafe.

Victim blaming right there. They have as right to the lane, cars don’t.

Cars in London apparently have a right to pull over to drop and pick up passengers.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#337

Post by petre »

bradleyjg wrote: post #248
spankalee wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blocking the right car lane for a drop off is perfectly legal outside of No Stopping zones. This is how taxis have always worked. It's just that other drivers get pissed off if you block a car lane when there's a bike lane next to it. That needs to be trained away by enforcing the rules.

And then bicyclists will hit the people crossing to the side walk.

Bicycles have bells and brakes, you know. And cycling commuters have eyes to see opening car doors. It's also more difficult to use your phone on a bike and Japan has new laws regarding that.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#338

Post by petre »

dualvariable wrote: post #154
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pretty sure it went something like “so where are we allowed to pickup and drop off riders” and the city couldn’t answer. The problem isn’t really enforcement, the problem is that there are simply no alternatives, and the city shies away from enforcement because they know that. If they started enforcing the rules strictly, people would again ask questions that they aren’t prepared to answer. If you compare that to…

One question the city probably can't answer is what disabled persons in the taxi are supposed to do. If you strictly enforce bike lanes the result is probably the rider needing to walk a few blocks. If the rider is disabled, that could actually be a huge burden. Since I've got an 80+ year old disabled parent with a walker this is an issue for me that does compete pretty aggressively with my support for bikes.

Designated drop off points with disabled person priority is the answer. How do you dropp off a disabled person in a lane with clogged street side paking? Shouldn't you be against street side parking by the same logic?

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#339

Post by petre »

slibhb wrote: post #160
spankalee wrote: post #59

Cities that want to keep cars out of bike lanes should keep all cars out of them, autonomous or not, by ticketing them. But they don't, so taxis and delivery drivers stop in them. That's traffic enforcement's fault. Given that human drivers stop in bike lanes, Waymo then has a tradeoff: 1) Be the only ones to follow the letter of the law, break a lot of people's expectations, and catch backlash for disrupting traffic…

I agree with your analysis but I just want to point out that, as a general rule, cyclists do not follow traffic laws. They don't stop at stop signs/red lights. They weave in and out of traffic. They often bike the wrong way down one-way bike paths.

You should see scooterists then. Especially those on the scooter sharing networks.

Re: Waymo says can't avoid bike lanes because riders want to be dropped off in them

#340

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jasomill wrote: post #319
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC used to (or still?) enforced strictly parking violations by delivery companies. But they did it so evenly the companies just considered it a cost of doing business, and raised their rates accordingly. Not violating the law and still being in the business wasn’t an option, so no competitor could undercut the other by following the rules and not paying the fine.

Sounds like a scenario where something other than fines should be applied. Revoke plates fleetwide, tow any delivery trucks caught on the street with a mandatory 72 hour minimum impound time, with no access to the contents of the vehicle. And so on.

I don't think NYC wanted to basically ban the delivery companies like that, then the public would complain, so it was convenient fiction to have them fined and pass on the costs. Again, this is more of a "you can't do that but we don't have an actual solution so do it anyways" situation, not a "we aren't enforcing our rules strictly enough" problem.
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