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Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#331

Post by panick21_ »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #305
panick21_ wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it actually wouldn't. As in 15+ years of Hacker News I have not seen the same so clearly it can be so horrible that it regularly leads to such strong reaction, suggesting that for most people this isn't nearly so impactful. And very few things described could actually be called harassment, mostly it was light criticism or maybe a bit trolling.

Hacker news also attracts those already driven insane. Virtually none of us can socialize normally or have healthy human values

Again, wildly incorrect and just the old 'nerd' stereotype.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#332

Post by bzzzt »

mort96 wrote: post #271
LoganDark wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably Apple can resample audio streams extremely cheaply.

I mean the algorithms for that are known, and PipeWire/PulseAudio implements them competently. But it still has to be done.

Just like the mouse that has to be polled 100 times per second or display that is composited from all window buffers at least 60 times per second. It might really be negligible in the grand scheme of things and not worth optimizing for.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#333

Post by bzzzt »

hedora wrote: post #306
mjg59 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DMIX was typically not an out of the box default, and had multiple shortcomings.

Even so, surely it would have been easier and better to just fix or replace dmix (in kernel, in the existing data path) than introduce a userspace daemon, break API compatibility, and so on. It’s been 20 years and pulseaudio is still flaky / high latency / incomprehensible. Professional flows that care use stuff like jack.

Pulseaudio came with an ALSA plugin which meant applications written for the ALSA API could output to PA so it was compatible.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#334

Post by cromka »

aurareturn wrote: post #316
cromka wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Little to no monetary benefit A 1-3% of the market out of the 5% that Linux already is, is little to no monetary benefit?

Apple has many easier ways to win 1-3% of 5%.

Many? Really? Do share some examples, please, on how does Apple easily sway Linux users?

EDIT: I now see what you said: I meant 1-3 percentage points out of the 5%, but I am sure you actually know that.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#335

Post by cromka »

graemep wrote: post #330
cromka wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by needed? A lock-in is more profitable so is needed to maximise profits. You can't lock-in Linux users because vast majority of them won't switch to macOS and ecosystem at large. This is simply a currently untapped market they could easily almost entirely own if they wanted to. With growing Linux popularity, extra 3-4% of the laptop market share is nothing they can ignore in front of shareholders.

I am not convinced they would "entirely own" the market - they have a small range of hardware. Even less so in the long term. That extra few percentage points would be a lot less profitable as they would only have the margin on extra hardware sales so would not add much to profits - not enough for shareholders to care about. It also risks existing users switching to Linux which could be a huge loss. Apple has a very…

> I am not convinced they would "entirely own" the market - they have a small range of hardware. Even less so in the long term. That extra few percentage points would be a lot less profitable as they would only have the margin on extra hardware sales so would not add much to profits - not enough for shareholders to care about.

I am aware of that, but there's another factor here: accelerating Windows users switching to Linux on Apple hardware. Those Linux MacBooks would be killer devices that nothing in Windows world can compete against! I mean we can all agree the tech social media would go bonkers over that, wouldn't it? If a couple of YouTubers were able to bump those Linux numbers significantly and spearhead gamers questioning their choices, imagine the dent Apple would make. I am absolutely certain Apple would gain couple extra percentage points with Apple on Linux devices within first year and make Microsoft shit their pants in the process.

> It also risks existing users switching to Linux which could be a huge loss. Apple has a very loyal user base how do not try anything else and the last thing they want to do is risk encouraging them to try alternatives.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here a bit? If they're very loyal, there isn't much risk of them switching, is there?

But yeah, Product Cannibalization is always a risk, though it doesn't mean they couldn't actually embrace Linux and offer ecosystem integration there. iCloud integration? Sure, why not? iPhone integration? Why not? Apple TV app? Again, especially to attract those Windows users making a switch, who are much more used to paying for services and software?

Heck, they could even port AppStore over and improve Swift's cross-platform compatibility, especially considering Swift is fairly cross-platform already. I doubt many software products wold get ported, though. Besides, macOS AppStore is not a huge earner for Apple, considering the platform is open, unlike iOS, so macOS users switching to Linux don't have to imply a significant loss of income from ecosystem spending. Also, many loyal macOS users would likely dual-boot and be happy to continue to buy and use macOS-exclusive software as needed.

This isn't unrealistic, I seriously think it's a matter of time when those numbers start making sense for Apple. Also, if US administration changes, both US and EU regulation bodies will be back on Big Tech asses and for Apple to open to Linux to say "hey, we're pretty open" is another win.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#336

Post by graemep »

cromka wrote: post #335
graemep wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not convinced they would "entirely own" the market - they have a small range of hardware. Even less so in the long term. That extra few percentage points would be a lot less profitable as they would only have the margin on extra hardware sales so would not add much to profits - not enough for shareholders to care about. It also risks existing users switching to Linux which could be a huge loss. Apple has a very…

> I am not convinced they would "entirely own" the market - they have a small range of hardware. Even less so in the long term. That extra few percentage points would be a lot less profitable as they would only have the margin on extra hardware sales so would not add much to profits - not enough for shareholders to care about. I am aware of that, but there's another factor here: accelerating Windows users switching t…

> Aren't you contradicting yourself here a bit? If they're very loyal, there isn't much risk of them switching, is there?

That needs clarification. They are loyal because they do not try anything else and often make assumptions that other OSes are worse than they actually are. They often assume a lot of features (e.g. shared clipboards across devices) are Apple only. They will not take the risk of buying non-Apple hardware to try another OS.

> Product Cannibalization is always a risk, though it doesn't mean they couldn't actually embrace Linux and offer ecosystem integration there. iCloud integration?

It reduces the lock-in the have with existing customers. Having that lockin over the whole stack is what keeps them in the ecosystem.

> Also, if US administration changes, both US and EU regulation bodies will be back on Big Tech asses and for Apple to open to Linux to say "hey, we're pretty open" is another win.

I have less faith in the regulators than that. The push to open has never been that strong. No-one has challenged things like limiting software installation to the app-store, and Google is confident enough that no-one will to be switching to the same with Android in a few months time.

> Besides, macOS AppStore is not a huge earner for Apple, considering the platform is open, unlike iOS, so macOS users switching to Linux don't have to imply a significant loss of income from ecosystem spending

Not yet. They have the option of gradually making "side loading" harder (for our own security, of course) and increasing that profit.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#337

Post by cromka »

graemep wrote: post #336
cromka wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not convinced they would "entirely own" the market - they have a small range of hardware. Even less so in the long term. That extra few percentage points would be a lot less profitable as they would only have the margin on extra hardware sales so would not add much to profits - not enough for shareholders to care about. I am aware of that, but there's another factor here: accelerating Windows users switching t…

> Aren't you contradicting yourself here a bit? If they're very loyal, there isn't much risk of them switching, is there? That needs clarification. They are loyal because they do not try anything else and often make assumptions that other OSes are worse than they actually are. They often assume a lot of features (e.g. shared clipboards across devices) are Apple only. They will not take the risk of buying non-Apple ha…

Well, agreed on all points. I guess the conclusion is time will tell, but I am sure Apple is legitimately looking into this on some level, especially since Steam is doing so well and keeps expanding Linux user-base.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#338

Post by neobrain »

walterbell wrote: post #86
omcnoe wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is also the added challenge that ARM macs are a moving target, and Apple has less than no desire to provide any kind of stability or support for Asahi Linux. Unlike the PC space where laptop manufacturers have to maintain broad compatibility over time, Apple will make future changes that are really awkward for Asahi and will not care one bit because they can do the compat work on their own software.

How does Ubuntu Linux on recent Qualcomm (ex-Apple Nuvia) Arm laptops compare to Asahi Linux on Apple Silicon?

Most people don't realize that the Asahi team ship features only once they work without quirks. For the set of supported hardware features, Asahi is much closer to a macOS experience than to an average x86 Linux laptop experience.

Meanwhile, Linux on my Lenovo X13s "works" but has tons of quirks: Boot fails 2 out of 3 times, the device hard-resets sometimes when waking up with a display connected, and the speakers are unusable due to lack of active overheat protection (and somehow this affects even external speakers). It technically works, but it's incredibly frustrating to use in practice.

If you plan to use Linux and don't need an ARM laptop, there's little reason to prefer a Qualcomm device over an x86 one currently. On the other hand, M1/M2 easily outperform a broad class of x86 laptops, and they have a Linux experience that's for many use cases close to on par with official vendor support.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#339

Post by awithrow »

freedomben wrote: post #53
georgeburdell wrote: post #37

I really hope this project continues to gain momentum. Apple Hardware + Linux is the least fscked OS running on the best hardware. MacOS continues to be a tire fire with endless bugs and churn between versions.

You should give Framework a try. It's been a flawless experience with Fedora. And with the upcoming Framework 13 Pro, battery life and trackpad are expected to be on par (or in the case of battery, even better than macos)

I really want this to be true but for me its not close. Maybe its better on the new 13 but its still night and day between my mac book and my FW 16 that's about a year old. My macbook works for days without a charge. My FW last maybe 6-8 hours on battery.

Don't get me wrong. I do really enjoy my FW but the mac hardware is still number one for me. I'd really love is an ARM based FW. Though if I could wave a magic wand it would be mac hardware running pure linux with no caveats. I really love seeing what Asahi is building

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#340

Post by rekoil »

perarneng wrote: post #327

Thunderbolt would be a great addition, its a showstopper right now for many

Yeah I think if they manage to solve that then we're gonna be cruising. I want to but can't really run AsahiLinux as it stands, my workstation is Thunderbolt-based and that's non-negotiable.
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