Live data from Hacker News

Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

undark.org

331–340 of 454 posts

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how to touch type What for? I've been writing computer programs and documentation since 1969 and I can't touch type. I've never felt enough pressure to do it. I can still type faster than I can think. When I'm writing most of my time is spent thinking not tapping the keys.

> touch type can even be harmful IFF we interpret "touch typing" as the typical thought typing method and not just "typing without looking at the keyboard". In general key arrangement traces back to physical limitations of type writers not ergonomics and layout choice isn't exactly ergonomic based either. But even if it where, the biggest issue of touch typing is that it's often thought around the idea of your hands…

Anatomy might matter if you're talking about world champion speed typing. I don't think it matters for just being competent (I say this as a man with short and fat fingers)

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be a mistake to use Desmos in a math classroom, or 3Blue1Brown style animations, to build up visual intuition? Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python? Should kids be forced to use physical copies of newspapers and journal articles instead of learning how to look things up in a database? I'm all for going back to analog where it makes sense, but it seems wrongheaded to completel…

> Would it be a mistake to use Desmos in a math classroom, or 3Blue1Brown style animations, to build up visual intuition? I don't think there's anything wrong with showing kids some videos every now and then. I still have fond memories of watching Bill Nye. > Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python? No. Those should be done by hand, so kids can develop an intuition for it. The same way w…

>> Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python?

> No. Those should be done by hand, so kids can develop an intuition for it. The same way we don't allow kids learning multiplication and division to use calculators.

I would think that it would make sense to introduce Python in the same way that calculators, and later graphing calculators are introduced, and I believe (just based on hearing random anecdotes) that this is already the case in many places.

I'm a big proponent of the gradual introduction of abstraction, which my early education failed at, and something Factorio and some later schooling did get right, although the intent was rarely communicated effectively.

First, learn what and why a thing exists at a sufficiently primitive level of interaction, then once students have it locked in, introduce a new layer of complexity by making the former primitive steps faster and easier to work with, using tools. It's important that each step serves a useful purpose though. For example, I don't think there's much of a case for writing actual code by hand and grading students on missing a semicolon, but there's probably a case for working out logic and pseudocode by hand.

I don't think there's a case for hand-drawing intricate diagrams and graphs, because it builds a skill and level of intimacy with the drawing aspect that's just silly, and tests someone's drawing capability rather than their understanding of the subject, but I suppose everyone has they're own opinion on that.

That last one kind of crippled me in various classes. I already new better tools and methods existed for doing weather pattern diagrams or topographical maps, but it was so immensely tedious and time-consuming that it totally derailed me to the point where I'd fail Uni labs despite it not being very difficult content, only because the prof wanted to teach it like the 50s.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#334
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think kids need extreme amounts of freedom with guidance on what are the best tools to be used for learning. Why an "extreme" amount of freedom? > There is no way to be done away with tech on school, but some balance and freedom must be achieved. Yes there is. Students were educated just a couple decades ago without it. We can easily return to that style.

>Why an "extreme" amount of freedom? As dangerous as this sounds, with guidance, I think it could be done. Government and public institutions love to lock the environment into something safe but useless for further learning and adaptability

I don't know that it sounds dangerous.

I am wondering what you mean by it and why you think it's needed.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#335
post #191
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see the advantage of learning 'AI workflows'. This would be just the modern version of "Computer class" back in the day when we learned to use word, excel, etc. Just another tool among others that is helpful to learn but should be limited to that specific class. Though actual sad thing learning from friends with kids is that the modern "computer class" does not actually teach kids to use computers much thes…

Yeah I'd be happier if they learned how an Apollo computer worked (even though it has virtually no relevance) than how to use Excel.

This reminds me of Harvey Cragon's intro to computer architecture textbook...

When it introduces Harvard vs. Von Neumann architectures, it doesn't invent some dumb RISC computer to illustrate the difference... No... it makes you learn the actual von Neumann machine! Also Conrad Zuse Z machine.

Cragon's argument is that students will not learn the concept of engineering trade-offs, if presented with a clean "textbook" architecture.

I hated MIX for various reasons, it's sort of in-between simple and kludgy.

[0] Cragon was professor at University of Texas Austin ca 1980. Also the architect of TI's ASC in the 1960s.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would it be a mistake to use Desmos in a math classroom, or 3Blue1Brown style animations, to build up visual intuition? I don't think there's anything wrong with showing kids some videos every now and then. I still have fond memories of watching Bill Nye. > Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python? No. Those should be done by hand, so kids can develop an intuition for it. The same way w…

>> Should we not teach basic numerical and statistical methods in Python? > No. Those should be done by hand, so kids can develop an intuition for it. The same way we don't allow kids learning multiplication and division to use calculators. I would think that it would make sense to introduce Python in the same way that calculators, and later graphing calculators are introduced, and I believe (just based on hearing ra…

Fwiw calculators were banned in my school. Only started to use one in university - and there it also didnt really help with anything as the math is already more complex

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#337
post #315
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not using tech that you're describing here. You're talking about literally learning some basic computer skills (such as word processor, excel, reading email, some basic website building, use printer, and some amount of programming) For those, obviously you need a computer and completely agree that those are important skills to learn... But you maybe need to spend 1h/week during last 2 years of middle school on…

I am pretty skeptical about the value of learning to build websites. I think it is too tempting for students to devote significant time to something that is not foundational knowledge and where they won't get any valuable feedback anyway. It makes me think back to my writing assignments in grades 6-12. I spent considerable time making sure the word processor had the exact perfect font, spacing, and formatting with co…

re: Anki. It is not as optimized but you can do SRS with physical flash-cards.

* Have something like 5 bins, numbered 1-5.

* Every day you add your new cards to bin nr. 1 shuffle and review. Correct cards go to bin nr. 2, incorrect cards stay in bin nr. 1.

* Every other day do the same with bin nr. 1 and 2, every forth with bin nr. 1, 2 and 3 etc. except incorrect cards go in the bin below. More complex scheduling algorithms exist.

* In a classroom setting the teacher can print out the flashcards and hand out review schedule for the week (e.g. Monday: add these 10 new cards and review 1; Tuesday: 10 new cards and review box 1 and 2; Wednesday: No new cards and and review box 1 and 3; etc.)

* If you want to be super fancy, the flash card publisher can add audio-chips to the flash-cards (or each box-set plus QR code on the card).

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And s/he was right. Most students who were brought up with calculators in math class cannot do basic math without one today. When shopping in groceries, they have no idea if one product costs more than another by weight. They're easy to bamboozle with the simplest misrepresentations of numbers. Is one choice of product really better than another, fractionally, or corrected for a shifted baseline? They don't know and…

That is poor teaching. My kids were almost always allowed calculators (always after the age of 8 or 9) and they can do all that and a lot more (my older daughter is an electronics engineer, in R & D). For one thing you do not need to do much arithmetic to do algebra, for another estimating and getting a feel for numbers is not the same skill as learning a bunch of arithmetic techniques. No one is going to do long div…

Um... there's always exceptions.

I can keep enough digits in my working memory to do long division in the grocery aisle.

I also compulsively factor numbers on license plates..

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#339
post #239
post #199

I worked in EdTech about a decade ago and our education/pedagogy experts were already talking about this. They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development. After working on that company for a couple of years I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. One of the reasons I left. In a decade or two the long term consequences of inundating kids with tech an…

> They also talked a lot about how handwriting is super important for cognitive development. Is it possible that there are alternative ways than handwriting for cognitive development? Probably in 500 BC they said you had to hack at stone with a chisel for cognitive development, and then someone invented the pen and paper. The difference is the task had to change as well. People were able to write thousands of pages (…

Is it possible that the inherent inefficiency of handwriting in recording information is what facilitates cognitive development? Writing information by hand requires the writer to parse the information being written and become skilled in understanding the most important aspects of the information to write since it is impractical to handwrite everything verbatim as it comes to mind.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#340
post #245
post #2

A very similar development is going on in neighboring Finland. There are schools that use almost exclusively paper books (instead of digital ones) again. The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids, all the way up to high school. Hand-writing and free drawing with pen and paper provide many advantages to fixed screens. You cannot open a new tab to Youtube in a book. The sign…

there's no evidence on scientific pedagogic literature that "analog ways" are better than digital when you control variables like "your kid being able to open a tab to watch a non-related Youtube video". you can't use your sample of 10 kids to say anything, nor use poor journalism done into the topic, which cites single research with less than thousand participants and bias from the author by other scientists on the…

You assert a pretty strong view, on what basis? but your hypothesis is directionally wrong, as found in these trials:

Screen readers take longer.

Feis A, Lallensack A, Pallante E, Nielsen M, Demarco N, Vasudevan B. Reading Eye Movements Performance on iPad vs Print Using a Visagraph. J Eye Mov Res. 2021 Sep 14

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8557948/?utm_source...

Another

https://users.soe.ucsc.edu/~srikur/files/HCII_reading.pdf?ut...

Tangential: One study finds few significant effects of disruptions on just on-screen reading, no printed books.. https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10....

Cited in Card Catalog , Hana Goldin, "What scrolling did to reading" here:

https://open.substack.com/pub/cardcatalogforlife/p/what-scro...

Post reply on HN