Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don't see this getting better. We went from 2 + 7 = 11 to "solved a frontier math problem" in 3 years, yet people don't think this will improve?
LLMs in some form will likely be a key component in the first AGI system we (help) build. We might still lack something essential. However, people who keep doubting AGI is even possible should learn more about The Church-Turing Thesis. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/church-turing/
Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
331–340 of 744 posts
Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
#332I am kind of amazed at how many commenters respond to this result by confidently asserting that LLMs will never generate 'truly novel' ideas or problem solutions. > AI is a remixer; it remixes all known ideas together. It won't come up with new ideas > it's not because the model is figuring out something new > LLMs will NEVER be able to do that, because it doesn't exist It's not enough to say 'it will never be able t…
Not very hard to understand.
Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
#333I am kind of amazed at how many commenters respond to this result by confidently asserting that LLMs will never generate 'truly novel' ideas or problem solutions. > AI is a remixer; it remixes all known ideas together. It won't come up with new ideas > it's not because the model is figuring out something new > LLMs will NEVER be able to do that, because it doesn't exist It's not enough to say 'it will never be able t…
I wondered how Claude Code would approach the problem. I fully expected it to do something most human engineers would do: brute-force with ScreenCaptureKit.
It almost instantly figured out that it didn't have to "see through" anything and (correctly) dismissed ScreenCaptureKit due to the performance overhead.
This obviously isn't a "frontier" type problem, but I was impressed that it came up with a novel solution.
Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
Math and coding competition problems are easier to train because of strict rules and cheap verification. But once you go beyond that to less defined things such as code quality, where even humans have hard time putting down concrete axioms, they start to hallucinate more and become less useful. We are missing the value function that allowed AlphaGo to go from mid range player trained on human moves to superhuman by p…
> I don't see this getting better. We went from 2 + 7 = 11 to "solved a frontier math problem" in 3 years, yet people don't think this will improve?
For RL, we are arriving at a similar point https://www.tobyord.com/writing/how-well-does-rl-scale
Next stop is inference scaling with longer context window and longer reasoning. But instead of it being a one-off training cost, it becomes a running cost.
In essence we are chasing ever smaller gains in exchange for exponentially increasing costs. This energy will run out. There needs to be something completely different than LLMs for meaningful further progress.
Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
I guess when it can't be tripped up by simple things like multiplying numbers, counting to 100 sequentially or counting letters in a string without writing a python program, then I might believe it. Also no matter how many math problems it solves it still gets lost in a codebase
Arguments like "but AI cannot reliably multiply numbers" fundamentally misunderstand how AI works. AI cannot do basic math not because AI is stupid, but because basic math is an inherently difficult task for otherwise smart AI. Lots of human adults can do complex abstract thinking but when you ask them to count it's "one... two... three... five... wait I got lost".
Who does fundamentally understand how LLMs work? Many claims flying around these days, all backed by some of the largest investments ever collectively made by humans. Lots of money to be lost because of fundamental misunderstandings.
Personally, I find that AI influencers conveniently brush away any evidence (like inability to perform basic arithmetic) about how LLMs fundamentally work as something that should be ignored in favor of results like TFA.
Do LLMs have utility? Undoubtedly. But it’s a giant red flag for me that their fundamental limitations, of which there are many, are verboten to be spoken about.
Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
Math and coding competition problems are easier to train because of strict rules and cheap verification. But once you go beyond that to less defined things such as code quality, where even humans have hard time putting down concrete axioms, they start to hallucinate more and become less useful. We are missing the value function that allowed AlphaGo to go from mid range player trained on human moves to superhuman by p…
> I don't see this getting better. We went from 2 + 7 = 11 to "solved a frontier math problem" in 3 years, yet people don't think this will improve?
Step away from LLMs for a second and recognize that “Yesterday it was X, so today it must be X+1” is such a naive take and obviously something that humans so easily fall into a trap of believing (see: flying cars).
Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
Beliefs are not rooted in facts. Beliefs are a part of you, and people aren't all that happy to say "this LLM is better than me"
It's not possible to know something without believing it to be true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief#/media/File:Classical_d...
Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
#338New goalpost, and I promise I'm not being facetious at all, genuinely curious: Can an AI pose an frontier math problem that is of any interest to mathematicians? I would guess 1) AI can solve frontier math problems and 2) can pose interesting/relevant math problems together would be an "oh shit" moment. Because that would be true PhD level research.
Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
#339It's like I'm reading 17th-18th century debates spurring the same arguments between rationalists and empiricists, lol. Maybe we're due for a 21st century Kant.
Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem
#340That's a self-evident thing to say, but it's worth repeating, because there's this odd implicit notion sometimes that you train on some cost function, and then, poof, "intelligence", as if that was a mysterious other thing. Really, intelligence is minimizing a complex cost function. The leadership of the big AI companies sometimes imply something else when they talk of "generalization". But there is no mechanism to generate a model with capabilities beyond what is useful to minimize a specific cost function.
You can view the progress of AI as progress in coming up with smarter cost functions: Cleaner, larger datasets, pretraining, RLHF, RLVR.
Notably, exciting early progress in AI came in places where simple cost functions generate rich behavior (Chess, Go).
The recent impressive advances in AI are similar. Mathematics and coding are extremely structured, and properties of a coding or maths result can be verified using automatic techniques. You can set up a RLVR "game" for maths and coding. It thus seems very likely to me that this is where the big advances are going to come from in the short term.
However, it does not follow that maths ability on par with expert mathematicians will lead to superiority over human cognitive ability broadly. A lot of what humans do has social rewards which are not verifiable, or includes genuine Knightian uncertainty where a reward function can not be built without actually operating independently in the world.
To be clear, none of the above is supposed to talk down past or future progress in AI; I'm just trying to be more nuanced about where I believe progress can be fast and where it's bound to be slower.