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“This is not the computer for you”

samhenri.gold

331–340 of 390 posts

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Chromebooks originally came out, that was not an option. And almost all school-issued computers will not let you do this.

Author of the post here. You nailed it here; I used Chromebook as the example in my post since the one I used in high school was locked down to basically a kiosk. Couldn’t even open dev tools, much less root it. Such a wild departure from the eMacs I used in my elementary school’s library where I could set bonkers `defaults write` commands and customize every aspect of my account. If I got a Chromebook as a personal…

Yeah, very little of this is still true of the period in which the Neo or modern Chromebooks exist.

If the school is managing these Macs, including laptops sent home with a student, then unless it's for a specific purpose they aren't allowing you modify files, you probably aren't allowed to open a terminal or system settings, and you definitely aren't disabling SIP. You might not even be able to access the open internet if they've hard-configured it into a VPN. No different from a managed Chromebook.

Likewise, even older and lower-end unmanaged Chromebooks can enable a full Linux environment that runs a terminal in a browser tab. Doing so doesn't require root or developer mode, and it doesn't change or sacrifice any of the rest of the ChromeOS environment (for which your core assertion, that an unmanaged Mac is a computer and an unmanaged Chromebook is a thin-client appliance, still fundamentally holds). You can install Blender and have it running in a window by about 1 minute into watching a YouTube video titled "How To Download Or Update ANY VERSION Of Blender On Chromebook".

Gaining root on a Chromebook is mostly just a prerequisite to modifying things specific to ChromeOS, but the easier to access, more featureful, and safer LDE is still an entire operating system that you can tinker with, screw up, overload, blow up, and reset to zero, all without losing the happy path of opening up Canva (or, more likely, CapCut on their phone/iPad) and editing videos or whatever.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

macOS is the best desktop UNIX for one simple reason: the ⌘ key. The fact that 99% of your GUI keybindings use a key that your CLI tooling cannot use eliminates conflicts and means that you don't have to remember things like "Copy is ^C in Chrome but ^⇧C in the terminal".

using a linux with toshy to get the best of both worlds wrt keybindings. linux and kde is amazing nowadays... I don't miss macos but would be hating linux without mac style keybindings.

Yeah, I use Kinto (which seems to be what Toshy is originally based on). A recent Ubuntu update broke it though, and I accidentally deleted my config file while trying to fix it, so maybe now's a good time to try out Toshy. Looks like Toshy creates a python virtualenv instead of relying on system packages, which should make it a little more resilient to system package changes.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're making it sound like they're forced to build Linux from scratch while walking knee deep in the snow, uphill both ways. That's way too detached from reality and certainly it's not a "tragedy". Kids are not doing specialized things that only have future value, they tinker with everything. Usually on what's available, yes. >and MacOS has more quality software than any other platform This is simply untrue,…

Windows have also always required a lot of tinkering and trouble shooting to make things work in a pleasant way. But for Linux, the creative software simply isn't there in many cases for a kid to start learning. Unless it's programming, which is not everybody's talent. A kid tinkering with any kind of creative software learns and absorbs important skills which they can build on later if they want to. These things are…

Blender, Audacity, Ardour, Inkscape, GIMP, Kdenlive, Puredata (programming, but visual), Krita.

Are these not creative software? Perhaps not industry standard, but what is industry going to look like in a couple of decades anyway?

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say it's primarily because their phone (android or iphone) does nearly everything they would ever want a "computer" to do, and so they never had a hook into real curiosity about computing. This will probably be exactly the same whether the school supplies a Macbook Neo or a Chromebook.

I'm a computer nerd who started on DOS on IIRC a 286, all the Windowses (OK not quite all, though my first job did expose me to a couple NT versions and 2K in addition to nearly-all the home versions I upgraded through on my own) and various Linuces (Gentoo as my primary OS, even, for like... five years, LOL) These days there are two things I use my "real" non-server computers for in my personal life: 1) Media piracy…

You can't even see this whole comment on an iPhone, let alone the immediate contextual thread that is necessary for framing it.

That sounds flippant, but it's the visceral reaction I have to trying to do everything on iOS (iPads are a little better than iPhone in this regard, but still have the "everything through a keyhole" feeling).

That said, tiny viewports are not really the main problem, since obviously a modern iPhone has far more resolution than almost any monitor available in 1990, or even 2000. It's more that most exploration and creation is not doable on an iPhone, by design.

My original point, though, was that seeing new grad software developers who have never had any non-externally-directed interaction with a computer made me realize why we have to show them how to use the shell in a terminal, and why they seemed to have no particular curiosity about any software thing not directly related to the task that they're doing. For new grads who aren't curious, finding that something they're doing doesn't work due to architectural issues or some nonobvious combination of bugs prompts neither asking for help nor a deep dive into what the problem could be. Asking for help is basically cheating, to them, and they've never before encountered real problems that weren't explained in the text, handled by their group partner, or trivially stack-exchangable (remember, this realization was 2019, and therefore before common LLM usage). At standup after standup, they report making progress on working through the moderately complex ticket they picked up, but in fact, nothing useful is happening. Sometimes people like this can be shown the way, and then become functioning and capable developers and troubleshooters. Sometimes not.

Anyway, /old-man-rant.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a bunch of intel atom ones IIRC. I got my degree with a used EEEpc with one of those.

As did I. The most unbelievable part is that we used that tiny keyboard.

EEEPc ? Oh, I used to dream of having an EEEPc ... I got my degree using old C64 - had to manually encrypt packets with pen and paper to use https.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#336
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very much so if you don't care about gaming . x86-64 emulation has already been great, and 99% of popular apps have native ARM64 versions. The only exception was Discord for me for a long time. I used to use an unofficial wrapper called "Legcord" instead. But, now even Discord has a native Windows version. I mostly use my laptop for software development + browsing. I haven't tried gaming, but I feel like it'll suck f…

Isn't Discord just a web app? Why would you need an ARM64 specific version in the first place when you have a browser?

Your question is essentially "why do Electron apps exist?" and the full answer would be quite long.

The most important one is that an app's lifecycle can be different than a web browser. You don't always keep a web browser open, but you might want to keep Discord open regardless of what you do with the web browser. That kind of lifecycle management can be tedious and frustrating for a regular user.

Discord's electron app has many features that its web app doesn't such as "Minimize to system tray", "Run at startup", "Game/media detection", "In-game overlays" etc.

Even PWAs can't have most of these features, so that's why we have to deploy an entire browser suite per app nowadays.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#337
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows have also always required a lot of tinkering and trouble shooting to make things work in a pleasant way. But for Linux, the creative software simply isn't there in many cases for a kid to start learning. Unless it's programming, which is not everybody's talent. A kid tinkering with any kind of creative software learns and absorbs important skills which they can build on later if they want to. These things are…

Blender, Audacity, Ardour, Inkscape, GIMP, Kdenlive, Puredata (programming, but visual ), Krita. Are these not creative software? Perhaps not industry standard, but what is industry going to look like in a couple of decades anyway?

Half of those are not good enough to inspire creativity in a child, because they are so cumbersome to use. The rest are good as far as I know.

You can't really compare Audacity to Garage Band or GIMP to Affinity (which is now free).

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#338
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a high specced MacBook Pro, but honestly I mostly use it for vscode tunnels to my actual dev machine. So the only real benefit compared to my MacBook Air is that the screen is a bit nicer, and I can keep more Firefox tabs open, because it has more RAM.

Bingo! IMO, laptops are best used as thin clients and you do the heavy lifting on servers or a box in a closet somewhere. I'va been migrating my workflow to this approach and I'm an embedded dev! My closet does have hw strewn about but once you set it up that you don't have to touch wires it's super convenient. My one gripe with MacBook airs up to m4 was support for only one external monitor. But m4 fixed this.

This is how I mostly use my Windows PC: remote access from my Android tablet via ssh and rdp. My gripe is entirely different: Microsoft has turned to crap.

RDP: Every time a native notification pops up, I get disconnected (usually the notification is about something I've been doing, such as starting a self-hosted server or running winget via unigetui). It randomly disconnects when I've been using it for more than a few minutes, even when there isn't a notification. All of this so far seems to be limited to Android's rdp client (the Windows app). For Windows built-in RDP client, my issue is that there's no way to make it resize the desktop like vmconnect does when you resize the window (and no way to proxy vmconnect connections easily for home use--I do not want to enable WinRM for the full system and figure out how to secure it, I just want a single PC on the LAN to be able to access a single VM conveniently, preferably able to log in as different users)

But there's issues with ssh (and likely WinRM/ps remoting, though I haven't used it) as well: with Linux you need to use sudo, but with Windows there's apparently no CLI requirement; ssh runs elevated (though apparently you can change this; I make do with connecting to a running psmux session that's not elevated). So far as I know, there's no way to elevate without the GUI being involved (admittedly I haven't looked since I started using ssh with Windows).

Linux? Connecting to Linux works perfectly. I can't use xrdp or ssh or vnc or forwarding x11 over ssh or [other] and they work perfectly. I used to use x2go before Wayland, and despite the pain of actually getting it working even that worked better; XDMCP required some amount of setup, but it was awesome (too bad there's nothing that efficient with Wayland); xpra looks great, but either didn't exist or I was unaware at the time. The only issues with Linux remoting are, again, Windows-related (it's seemingly impossible to get vmconnect enhanced session to work properly with Linux at all on Fedora 43; the things I've found online don't seem to work for me).

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#339
post #183
post #19

> The kid who tries to run Blender on a Chromebook doesn’t learn that his machine can’t handle it. He learns that Google decided he’s not allowed to. Or they learn to enable developer mode, unlock the bootloader, and install Linux, or use the officially supported Crostini, or so on. There's like 3 different ways to run Linux desktop apps on a modern Chromebook. The Macbooks don't let have an officially supported path…

This is an argument, but it’s also fundamentally comparing a computer that works out of the box to one that doesn’t.

I really don't get this comment section. You get a Macbook then you have a perfectly usable machine which will run all the mainstream software you ask of it, and then you get natively compiled well supported developer tooling, no VM required. The best argument for Chromebooks is that you can throw away ChromeOS and install Linux or use Linux in a VM. These are not even close to the same.

I think folks want to hate Apple more than they want to admit that Chromebooks kinda suck.

Re: “This is not the computer for you”

#340

> A Chromebook’s ceiling is made of web browser, and the things you run into are not the edges of computing but the edges of a product category designed to save you from yourself. I'm in the same boat as the author; I cut my teeth on a hand-me-down 2005 eMac, then a hand-me-down 2008 Macbook, before finally getting my own 2011 iMac. I think this is overly harsh on Chromebooks given they belong to the cheaper end of t…

A kid looking for the best bang for the carefully saved buck would buy a used machine off eBay, for less than $599, and more capable. An M1 MBP 2021 with 16GB would cost about this much; an M1 Macbook Air, or an M1 Mac Mini with 16 GB would cost half as much. A ton of beefy, perfectly Linux-ready used laptops can be had for under $350.

So this is only for the kids who are obsessed not just with computers, but brand-new computers. Which is a different demographic.

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