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AI is making junior devs useless

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Re: AI is making junior devs useless

#331

Post by i_think_so »

mh2266 wrote: post #87

This post, ironically, seems very likely to have been written by an LLM :/ "it's not x, but y", with bonus em-dash: > your value as a developer is not in your ability to ship code. It’s in your ability to look at code "But here’s the thing." "And honestly?"

Somebody said "once you learn to recognize this pattern you'll see it everywhere." I was half hoping I never would; now that I do I'm sure it will be depressing to read most web content generated after 2023. Sigh.

This is why humanity can't have nice things -- it's not X (because we break them like careless children), but Y (we make cheap crappy copies that push out the good and the real).

But here's the thing. No, actually, there is no other thing. This is our future now.

And honestly? I think I'll go talk that that guy I knew in high school and see if he's willing to train a new welder.

Re: AI is making junior devs useless

#332

Post by BobbyJo »

bdangubic wrote: post #125
BobbyJo wrote: post #45

Junior devs have always been useless. You used to give them tasks that take them a week or two even though a senior engineer could do it in a couple hours, not because you wanted them to contribute, but because you wanted them to learn to contribute. The same ethos makes sense with AI, it's just that every company is trying to avoid paying that training tax. Why turn a junior into a senior yourself if you can get the…

everyone was junior at one point, everyone. “junior” is just age mate, just age…

I meant junior in terms of experience, not age, the two are just very strongly correlated for obvious reasons.

Re: AI is making junior devs useless

#333

Post by palmotea »

nostrademons wrote: post #193
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, I don’t want this to sound bitter. The first time I was single as an adult was from 1996-2002 and dating apps weren’t a thing. The second time I was single was from 2006-2011 and I wasn’t really trying to date and spent most of the time getting my head back in the game and just hanging out with female friends until I started dating my now wife who I met at work. Even she had to make the first move. That…

FWIW, one of my (male) friends is about 5'2" and met his wife on OKCupid. She's about 4'10". Dating is kinda like founding a startup or getting a job, in that you have to kiss a lot of frogs, but you only need to succeed once. The point's to eliminate all the unsuitable prospects in the pool and find the one that is a match for you.

> Dating is kinda like founding a startup or getting a job, in that you have to kiss a lot of frogs, but you only need to succeed once. The point's to eliminate all the unsuitable prospects in the pool and find the one that is a match for you.

That's true, but dating apps are still a pretty toxic technology. It's got kind of a McNamara fallacy baked into it, they encourage users to setup filters on easy-to-quantity aspects (height, age) in a fairly thoughtless way, and entourage superficial, consumeristic evaluations. Most people would probably benefit from IRL interactions, which present a more holistic picture.

Re: AI is making junior devs useless

#334

Post by d675 »

nextstepfan wrote: post #39

Actually the truth is that a lot of senior devs are not very good either, and have negative value. But they have an inflated value of themselves that does not reflect reality. Pretty much all software projects seem to peak, and then decline in quality. There are only a handful of senior devs in the world who are actually good programmers.

agreed. Of the two software teams I've been on everyone has been a "senior". Some were fresh seniors, and some more staff. I've always been the most junior on the team.

2 devs on teach team were truly 10x before AI; each has 15-25 yrs of exp on very small teams, great at so many things: code - infra - linux internals - networking - incredible debugging skills - keep up with good practices - great docs - and desire to do things the "right way" - IQ + horsepower.

The other good senior devs may do some of those things.

My title is Senior 2 b/c I negotiated a raise during interview, but am mid-level at best. Now laid off.

Re: AI is making junior devs useless

#335

Post by keeda »

jimbokun wrote: post #322
keeda wrote: post #231

I maintain that in the future, any person wishing to learn any skill (not just coding!) will need to willingly eschew the use of AI when learning until they have "built the muscles". The literature is clear that repeated, hands-on practice is really the only way to build skills. I suspect the progression will be "No AI until intuition (whatever that is for that skill)" -> "Gradual use of AI to understand where it fal…

Here is a full proof plan to prevent students from abusing AI: Pencil and paper exams, taken in person with all electronic devices prohibited.

Haven't been able to verify, but somebody on a podcast mentioned that sales of paper and stationery have started soaring precisely because of this.

Edited to add: I think this is worth trying, but not nearly sufficient. I would not be surprised if all we see is that grades plummet because until the pen-and-paper tests the students have just been winging it with AI.

Re: AI is making junior devs useless

#336

Post by keeda »

fdgg wrote: post #280
keeda wrote: post #231

I maintain that in the future, any person wishing to learn any skill (not just coding!) will need to willingly eschew the use of AI when learning until they have "built the muscles". The literature is clear that repeated, hands-on practice is really the only way to build skills. I suspect the progression will be "No AI until intuition (whatever that is for that skill)" -> "Gradual use of AI to understand where it fal…

"At this point I can only see self-discipline as a mechanism to willingly avoid AI" Do you realise how difficult this actually is? Millions of people have zero self-discipline with their consumption of social media.

Yep! Which is exactly why I said implementing this at scale is TBD, I personally have no idea ;-)

One strategy I can think of is to remove the incentive to offload to AI, which probably means reducing the reliance on tests for evaluation. However, this also assumes intrinsic motivation within the students, which is also far from a given! Who's going to be motivated to do things the "hard way" when they don't even like the topic? Yet our curriculum is full of compulsory topics.

Like I said, none of our current systems are structured for this, and we'll probably have to figure things out from the ground up.

Re: AI is making junior devs useless

#337

Post by thisisit »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #140
thisisit wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Junior devs have always been useless > The same ethos makes sense with AI, it's just that every company is trying to avoid paying that training tax. Last time when a junior dev was added to my team I had a similar thought. But then talking with management I was informed that things went beyond just training. The company had a social responsibility pledge and understanding with the local educational institutions. Th…

Then don’t base comp on promotions - problem solved.

That might work for you - sure.

But different people have different ambitions. Some might not care for comp and want to become a people manager. Decent management is aware of this "different ambition" dynamic and try to mitigate this.

Also, this doesn't solve the problem of cost. Too many engineers without their comp based on promotions will still mean costly teams. That's why a balance of junior and senior is needed.

Re: AI is making junior devs useless

#339

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

thisisit wrote: post #337
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don’t base comp on promotions - problem solved.

That might work for you - sure. But different people have different ambitions. Some might not care for comp and want to become a people manager. Decent management is aware of this "different ambition" dynamic and try to mitigate this. Also, this doesn't solve the problem of cost. Too many engineers without their comp based on promotions will still mean costly teams. That's why a balance of junior and senior is needed…

How is bringing a couple off juniors on board instead of mid level developers who csn turn well defined tasks into cud’s going to help?

Re: AI is making junior devs useless

#340

Post by watwut »

BobbyJo wrote: post #330
watwut wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Junior devs have always been useless. You used to give them tasks that take them a week or two even though a senior engineer could do it in a couple hours We havent dont it and I never seen something like that.

Bummer. I was lucky enough to be that junior engineer for the first few years of my career.

I mean, our juniors were useful. Sometimes they got easier tasks, sometimes they got tasks on non-core parts of the project where the stakes were lower. I think that when they are truly just useless, they are either on the wrong project or company do something wrong.

I was useful as a junior too.

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