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Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

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Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#331

Post by addaon »

laughing_man wrote: post #327
mrweasel wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In line with "the web was a mistake" I think the idea that you can create cross platform software is an equally big mistake. You can do the core functionality of your product as cross platform, to some extend, but once you hit the interaction with the OS and especially the UI libraries of the OS, I think you'd get better software if you just accept that you'll need to write multiple application. We see this on mobile…

>You can do the core functionality of your product as cross platform, to some extend, but once you hit the interaction with the OS and especially the UI libraries of the OS, I think you'd get better software if you just accept that you'll need to write multiple application. Or you can use a VM, which is essentially what a modern browser is anyway. I wrote and maintained a Java app for many years with seamless cross p…

But using a browser (or a VM) buys into the fallacy that your customers across different platforms (Windows, Mac, etc) want the same product. They’re already distinguished by choosing a different platform! They have different aesthetics, different usability expectations, different priorities around accessibility and discover ability. You can produce an application (or web app) that is mediocre for all of them, but to provide a good product requires taking advantage of these distinctions — a good application will be different for different platforms, whether or not the toolkit is different.

Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#332

Post by arexxbifs »

dvdkon wrote: post #330
arexxbifs wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Visual Basic (and other 90s visual GUI builders) were great simple options for making GUI apps Yes, they were comfortable and easy to set up (and use), particularly when compared to web development. > a platform where their best bet at dynamic layout is `OnResize()` and `SubmitButton.Enabled = False` This is a great description of what web coding looked like for a very long time, _especially_ when it started replac…

> This is a great description of what web coding looked like for a very long time React is over a decade old, and as far as I remember, desktop apps using embedded browsers (Electron) started becoming dominant after it came out. The ease-of-distribution advantage is huge, but web technologies are big outside the Web too, where it doesn't apply. (Besides my main point, idiomatic web UIs don't implement resize handlers…

Microsoft invented AJAX when building Outlook for the web back in 2000. GMail was released in 2003 and Google Docs in 2006. Around this time, even enterprise giants like SAP started offering web UIs. This is the shift from RAD to web I'm talking about.

The current idiomatic way of doing web layouts was, back then, almost entirely theoretical. The reality was a cross-browser hell filled with onResize listeners, in turn calling code filled with browser-specific if statements. Entire JavaScript libraries were devoted to correctly identifying browsers in order for developers to take appropriate measures when writing UI code. Separate machines specifically devoted to running old versions of Internet Explorer had to be used during testing and development, in order to ensure end user compatibility.

In short: The web was not in any way, shape or form more convenient for developers than the RAD tools it replaced. But it was instant access multi-platform distribution which readily allowed for Cloud/SaaS subscription models.

Electron happened more as an afterthought, when the ease of distribution had already made web UIs, and hence web UI developers, hegemonic. Heck, even MS Office for the web predates React, Electron, and something as arcane as Internet Explorer 9.

Things have gotten much better, but we're still having to reinvent things that just existed natively in VB6 (DataGrid, anyone?) - and at the cost of increasingly complex toolchains and dependencies.

Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#333

Post by asdff »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #311
asdff wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only done one platform gui work (python) but I'd guess this is stuff that is ripe for transpiling since a lot of gui code is just reusing the same boilerplate everyone is using to get the same ui patters everyone is using. Like if I make something in tkinter seems like it should be pretty straightforward to write a tool that can translate all my function calls as I've structured them into a chunk of Swift that w…

We get into transpiling and we essentially start to rebuild yet another cross platform framework. Starts with "read this filetype and turn it into this layout" and it ends up with "we'll make sure this can deploy on X,Y,Z,W..." It'd be nice if companies could just play nice and agree on a standard interface. That's the one good thing the web managed to do. It's just stuck to what's ultimately 3 decades of tech debt f…

>It'd be nice if companies could just play nice and agree on a standard interface

They basically do though. Every cross platform native ported app I've used the GUI is the same layout. Well, except on macos the menu ribbon is on the topbar and windows it has its own ribbon layer in the application window. But that is it. All these frameworks already have feature parity with another. It is expected that they have these same functions and ui paradigms. Here's your button function. Here is where you specify window dimensions. This function opens a file browser. This one takes in user input to the textbox. I mean it is all pretty standardized and limited what you can expect to do in ui already.

Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#334

Post by BenjiWiebe »

yread wrote: post #269
mikestorrent wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the web was a mistake; as a distributed document reading platform it's a decent first attempt, but as an application platform it is miserable. I'm working on a colleague's vibe-coded app right now and it's just piles and piles of code to do something fairly simple; long builds and hundreds of dependencies... most of which are because HTML is shitty, doesn't have the GUI controls that people need built in, and al…

> sortable-and-filterable table Just use jquery and this plugin, 7kB minified: https://github.com/myspace-nu/jquery.fancyTable/blob/master/...

That would be the thousands of lines of JS that they are complaining about. Except if it depends on jquery, that's even more lines.

Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#335

Post by ranguna »

adithyassekhar wrote: post #324
ranguna wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange comparison. If you just call, text and check on bank apps, then the market is not for you. Just buy a used phone from 10 years ago. It's like saying why should you get a new gaming laptop to replace your 6 year old current gaming laptop, when all you do is office work. If all you do is office work, why buy a gaming laptop at all? Just use a standard okish smartphone or tablet.

Strange attack on a very valid point. An extremely small segment goes outside the regular phone/social media/video space that actually uses these faster chips. For others the experience haven't gotten better relative to the faster hardware. Where are those cycles going?

Extended battery life?

Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#336

Post by yread »

BenjiWiebe wrote: post #334
yread wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sortable-and-filterable table Just use jquery and this plugin, 7kB minified: https://github.com/myspace-nu/jquery.fancyTable/blob/master/...

That would be the thousands of lines of JS that they are complaining about. Except if it depends on jquery, that's even more lines.

? It's 294 lines unminified

Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#337

Post by ocornut »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #317
m-schuetz wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much any non-web GUI framework I tried so far has either been terrible to set up, or terrible to deploy. Or both. Electron is stupidly simple. ImGUI is the single exception that has been simple to set up, trivial to deploy (there is nothing to deploy, including it is all that's needed), and nice to use.

Except ImGUI’s missing what I consider essential features for macOS: proper multitouch support (two finger panning, pinch to zoom).

Specifically for panning and zooming, doesn't the OS translate those inputs to mouse events, like Windows does by default? Otherwise it is simply a matter of performing this translation at the backend level.

Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#338

Post by [deleted] »

kccqzy wrote: post #114
Qem wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Python generators for the lulz. They help one to write extremely memory-efficient programs. Perhaps the memory shortage further helps cement Python in the language popularity charts, vis-à-vis languages that tend to load whole data in memory by default, like R.

If we are talking about R, a lot of people who converted from R continued to operate in the same manner, by loading entire datasets into memory with pandas and numpy.

[deleted]

Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#339

Post by 1718627440 »

kccqzy wrote: post #114
Qem wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Python generators for the lulz. They help one to write extremely memory-efficient programs. Perhaps the memory shortage further helps cement Python in the language popularity charts, vis-à-vis languages that tend to load whole data in memory by default, like R.

If we are talking about R, a lot of people who converted from R continued to operate in the same manner, by loading entire datasets into memory with pandas and numpy.

And if the dataset fits into RAM and you don't want the computer to do anything else, then this is the fastest and best approach.

Re: Smartphone market forecast to decline this year due to memory shortage

#340

Post by 1718627440 »

okanat wrote: post #328
qsera wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ever used a GTK app under Windows? I have created and used them. They didn't look terrible on windows. >What a browser asks from an OS is a rectangle (a graphics buffer) and the fonts to draw a webpage. Nothing else. Entire drawing functionality and the behavior is redefined from scratch. This is the advantage of Web.. I think that is exactly what Gtk does (and may be even Qt also) too.. I think it is just there th…

Here is Bleachbit, a GTK3-based disk cleanup utility. It is a blurry mess and GTK3 Window headers are completely out of style and behavior with Windows. https://imgur.com/a/ruTGUaF#ntnfeCJ https://imgur.com/yGhgkz2 -> Comparison with another open source app Notepad3 under Windows. > I think that is exactly what Gtk does (and may be even Qt also) too.. The problem is they half-ass it. Qt only does it with QML. Qt Widg…

What you see as difference here is the GNOME3 look. You can create classical GUIs just fine with Gtk. Sure it's still not Win32, but they look and feel often more native then modern Microsoft apps.
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