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Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

blog.alaindichiappari.dev

331–340 of 611 posts

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who knows, maybe soon enough we'll have specially trained de-slopper bots, too. Fire, meet oil.

The naysayers said we’d never even get to this point. It’s far more plausible to me that AI will advance enough to de-slopify our code than it is to me that there will be some karmic reckoning in which the graybeards emerge on top again.

> The naysayers said we’d never even get to this point. It’s far more plausible to me that AI will advance enough to de-slopify our code than it is to me that there will be some karmic reckoning in which the graybeards emerge on top again.

"The naysayers"/"the graybeards" have never been on top.

If they had been, many of the things the author here talks about getting rid of never would've been popular in the first place. Giant frameworks? Javascript all the things? Leftpad? Rails? VBA? PHP? Eventually consistent datastores?

History is full of people who successfully made money despite the downsides of all those things because the downsides usually weren't the most important thing in the moment of building.

It's also full of people who made money cleaning it all up when the people who originally built it didn't have time to deal with it anymore. "De-slopify" is going to be a judgment question that someone will need to oversee, there's no one-size-fits-all software pattern, and the person who created the pile of code is unlikely to be in a position to have time to drive that process.

Step 1: make money with shortcuts

Step 2: pay people to clean up and smooth out most of those shortcuts

I've bounced between both roles already a lot due to business cycles of startup life. When you're trying to out-scale your competitor you want to find every edge you can, and "how does this shit actually work" is going to be one of those edges for making the best decisions about how to improve cost/reliability/perf/usability/whatever. "It doesn't matter what the code looks like" is still hard to take seriously compared to the last few iterations of people pitching tools claiming the same. The turnaround loop of modifying code is faster now; the risk of a tar-pit of trying to tune on-the-fly a pile of ill-fitting spaghetti is not. It's gonna be good enough for a lot of people, Sturgeon's law - e.g. most people aren't great at knowing what usefully-testable code looks like. So let's push past today's status quo of software.

If I was working on a boring product at a big tech co I'd be very worried, since many of those companies have been hiring at high salaries for non-global-impact product experiments that don't need extreme scale or shipping velocity. But if you want to push the envelope, the opportunity to write code faster should be making you think about what you can do with it that other people aren't yet. Things beyond "here's a greenfield MVP of X" or "here's a port of Y."

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who knows, maybe soon enough we'll have specially trained de-slopper bots, too. Fire, meet oil.

The naysayers said we’d never even get to this point. It’s far more plausible to me that AI will advance enough to de-slopify our code than it is to me that there will be some karmic reckoning in which the graybeards emerge on top again.

The AI agents can ALREADY "de-slopify" the code. That's one of the patterns people should be using when coding with LLMs. Keep an agent that only checks for code smells, testability, "slop", scalability problems, etc. alongside whatever agent you have writing the actual code.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#333

A significant number of developers and businesses are going to have an absolutely brutal rude awakening in the not too distant future. You can build things this way, and they may work for a time, but you don't know what you don't know (and experience teaches you that you only find most stuff by building/struggling; not sipping a soda while the AI blurts out potentially secure/stable code). The hubris around AI is goi…

I would argue that it's going to be the opposite. At re:Invent, one of the popular sessions was in creating a trio of SRE agents, one of which did nothing but read logs and report errors, one of which did analysis of the errors and triaged and proposed fixes, and one to do the work and submit PRs to your repo. Then, as part of the session, you would artificially introduce a bug into the system, then run into the bug…

It's nice that AI can fix bugs fast, but it's better to not even have bugs in the first place. By using someone else's battle tested code (like a framework) you can at least avoid the bugs they've already encountered and fixed.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#334

This is a wild take. Good frameworks come with clever, well-thought-out abstractions and defensive patterns for dealing with common problems experienced when working in the space the framework covers. frameworks are also often well-documented and well-supported by the community, creating common ways of doing things with well understood strengths and weaknesses. In some cases, it's going to make sense to drop your dep…

The other thing that's dumb about this is frameworks are usually consolidating repetitive boilerplate so it's going to cost a lot more tokens for an AI to inline everything a framework does.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#335

Every day I feel closer to leaving this industry when I see articles like this. Is software even a real industry with patterns, safety, design, performance, review, etc. Or are we just a hype generating machine that's happy to ship the most broken stuff possible the fastest. Why do we have to constantly relearn the same lessons.

I suggest to read the full article :)

The thesis of the article is that software other people have built is bad (frameworks) but software my LLM agent is good (for undisclosed reasons).

I think it just adds to the noise of our industry that reusable patterns and standards don't matter

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The naysayers said we’d never even get to this point. It’s far more plausible to me that AI will advance enough to de-slopify our code than it is to me that there will be some karmic reckoning in which the graybeards emerge on top again.

What point have we reached? All I see is HN drowning in insufferable, identical-sounding posts about how everything has changed forever. Meanwhile at work, in a high stakes environment where software not working as intended has actual consequences, there are... a few new tools some people like using and think they may be a bit more productive with. And the jury's still out even on that. The initial excitement of LLMs…

The excitement hasn't cooled off where I'm working.

Honestly, I'm personally happy to see so many naysayers online, it means I'm going to have job security a little longer than you folks.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What point have we reached? All I see is HN drowning in insufferable, identical-sounding posts about how everything has changed forever. Meanwhile at work, in a high stakes environment where software not working as intended has actual consequences, there are... a few new tools some people like using and think they may be a bit more productive with. And the jury's still out even on that. The initial excitement of LLMs…

I am not in a high stakes environment and work on a one-person size projects. But for months I have almost stopped writing actual lines of code myself. Frequency and quality of my releases had improved. I got very good feedback on those releases from my customer base, and the number of bugs reported is not larger than on a code written by me personally. The only downside is that I do not know the code inside out anym…

Feels like code written by a co-worker. No different than working on any decent sized code-base anywhere.

I've stopped writing code too. Who the fuck wants to learn yet ANOTHER new framework. So much happier with llm tools.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The naysayers said we’d never even get to this point. It’s far more plausible to me that AI will advance enough to de-slopify our code than it is to me that there will be some karmic reckoning in which the graybeards emerge on top again.

What point have we reached? All I see is HN drowning in insufferable, identical-sounding posts about how everything has changed forever. Meanwhile at work, in a high stakes environment where software not working as intended has actual consequences, there are... a few new tools some people like using and think they may be a bit more productive with. And the jury's still out even on that. The initial excitement of LLMs…

I make mission critical software for robust multi robotic control in production flying real robots every day

16% of our production codebase is generated from claude or another LLM

Just because you can’t do it doesn’t mean other people can’t

Denial is a river

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that instructing AI to use frameworks yields better results and sets you up for a better outcome. I use Claude Code with both Django and React which its surprisingly good with. I rather use software thats tried and tested. The only time I let it write its own is when I want ultra minimal CSS.

This. For area where you can use tested and tried libraries (or tools in general) LLMs will generate better code when they use them. In fact, LLMs will be better than humans in learning new frameworks. It could end up being the opposite that frameworks and libraries become more important with LLMs.

Yeah, I don't know why you'd drop using frameworks and libraries just because you're using an LLM. If you AREN'T using them you're just loading a bunch of solved problems into the LLMs context so it can re-invent the wheel. I really love the LLM because now I don't need to learn the new frameworks myself. LLMs really remove all the bullshit I don't want to think about.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#340
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What point have we reached? All I see is HN drowning in insufferable, identical-sounding posts about how everything has changed forever. Meanwhile at work, in a high stakes environment where software not working as intended has actual consequences, there are... a few new tools some people like using and think they may be a bit more productive with. And the jury's still out even on that. The initial excitement of LLMs…

> I think I'm done with HN at this point. On the bright side, this forum is gonna be great fun to read in 2 or 3 years, whether the AI dream takes off, or crashes to the ground.

I do not await the day where the public commons is trashed by everyone and their claudebot, though perhaps the segmentation of discourse will be better for us in the long run given how most social media sites operate.
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