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Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

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Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#331
post #4

Please do not take 5000mg/day of Vitamin D. The author confuses IU and mg which is very dangerous.

That’s a large enough error that it calls the rest of the writing into question, in my opinion. Also, be careful taking 5000 IU/day of Vitamin D. I did this for a few months and it was enough to send my blood levels over the top of the range, even in winter. Too much Vitamin D is not good for you. The supplement fans have gone too far in recommending too high of dosages. My doctor said she’s seeing a lot of people wi…

It's usually pretty hard to get to toxic levels though, most people that don't live in a particularly sunny climate won't get anywhere near there on 5000 IU/day.

Just test your blood levels before you start and then after 3 months or so. It's quick and cheap, and the only way to know whether the dose is right.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#332
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tea, especially green tea, doesn’t have the same caffeine bioavailability as coffee – otherwise people would abuse it just as much as coffee You can absolutely get high doses of caffeine from tea if you really want to. It comes down to the type of tea, how much is used, and how strong it’s brewed. There is nothing special about tea that breaks the rules of caffeine. It comes down to the content of the leaves, quant…

> There is nothing special about tea that breaks the rules of caffeine. There's definitely something special, just poorly studied: typical "how much caffeine is in X?" tables show tea having caffeine levels similar to coffee, but I never feel the same effects. > Caffeine pills generally have really high dosages, FYI. I use 200 mg tablets split into quarters for doses of 50–100 mg. Yet, they produce a much milder curv…

> typical "how much caffeine is in X?" tables show tea having caffeine levels similar to coffee,

I have never seen a caffeine comparison table that shows tea and coffee at the same level.

It’s common knowledge that typical coffee brews are in the range of 2-5X higher in caffeine content than typical tea brews.

Tea is widely used as a lower caffeine alternative to coffee.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#333
Scott Alexander observes in this piece https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/all-medications-are-insigni... that the effect size for even EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE medications are remarkably low.

> Zolpidem (“Ambien”) has effect size around 0.39 for getting you to sleep faster. Ibuprofen (“Advil”, “Motrin”) has effect sizes between from about 0.20 (for surgical pain) to 0.42 (for arthritis). All of these are around the 0.30 effect size of antidepressants.

...

> Some of our favorite medications, including statins, anticholinergics, and bisphosphonates, don’t reach the 0.50 level. And many more, including triptans, benzodiazepines (!), and Ritalin (!!) don’t reach 0.875.

As for why, read his essay I guess. But I wouldn't take at face value the interpretation of effect sizes in the original article.

(I also couldn't say why the effect size of vit D and Omega-3's is so large, although per Scott Alexander's article if fewer people drop out of the treatment group, that should increase the effect size, so maybe the relative tolerability of the treatments is part of the story?)

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a large enough error that it calls the rest of the writing into question, in my opinion. Also, be careful taking 5000 IU/day of Vitamin D. I did this for a few months and it was enough to send my blood levels over the top of the range, even in winter. Too much Vitamin D is not good for you. The supplement fans have gone too far in recommending too high of dosages. My doctor said she’s seeing a lot of people wi…

It's usually pretty hard to get to toxic levels though, most people that don't live in a particularly sunny climate won't get anywhere near there on 5000 IU/day. Just test your blood levels before you start and then after 3 months or so. It's quick and cheap, and the only way to know whether the dose is right.

> It's pretty hard to get to toxic levels though, most people that don't live in a particularly sunny climate won't get anywhere near there on 5000 IU/day.

No, that’s literally what I was doing when I reached the excessive range: 5000 IU/day in winter with an indoor job.

This commonly repeated idea that everyone is deficient and you can’t overdose on 5000 IU/day is wrong.

> Just test your blood levels before you start and then after 3 months or so. It's quick and cheap, and the only way to know whether the dose is right.

Literally what I did.

Every time I explain this online it seems like the supplement people ignore what I wrote and just parrot the same “5000 IU/day and everyone is so deficient you can’t overdose” myth.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#335
post #161

Because it's common to hate on antidepressants, I've always personally had a bias against them. For the past 15-20 years, november thru february are basically a writeoff due for me due to seasonal affective disorder. Cold showers, exercise, no alcohol, strict sleeping rituals. Vitamin d. I can still sleep 11 hours and feel like reheated cat shit. Enter citalopram. "It will take up to six weeks to dial in" they said.…

The hate on antidepressants is not because they're not effective, but rather that they're abused by psychiatrists. Ideally, a professional will prescribe them as a necessary helper to becoming (more) mentally healthy whilst tackling the root cause. Most of the time however, it's more of a "here, take these indefinitely". It's like if we took sleeping pills every time we had trouble sleeping. Having said that, I just…

"Imagine if we took insulin every time our pancreas failed to properly process sugar."

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#336
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So 5000 IU is the recommended amount?

I was taking 2x2000 IU with almost no sun exposure and then did bloodwork. My level was 77.8 ng/mL. The lab's reference ranges listed 30-50 ng/mL as optimal, 50-100 as high, over 100 as potentially toxic, and over 200 as toxic.

I don't know why this is downvoted, I had a very similar experience a while back. I took 4000 IU/day for about 4 months, insignificant sun exposure and ended up at 60 ng/mL (lab listed normal range as 30-40).

My starting levels were unknown but I assumed they were low given my usual sun exposure and some low-energy symptoms (which resolved a couple of weeks after I started taking it). I discontinued VitD then and now I only take 1000 IU/day in the winter.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, author of the blog post here! Thank you for sharing your experience with antidepressants, I'm really glad it worked for you & made your life better. I did mention the following at the end of the "antidepressants" section, but reading your comment convinced me to move it further up. The intro now reads: > The "standardised effect size" of antidepressants on depression, vs placebo, is around 0.4. (On average; some…

Thank you for the blog post! I live in New England and always had the winter blues, always just assumed it was because of the weather but never acted on it. About a week ago, there was a reddit post claiming it's actually geographically impossible for anyone where I live to produce enough Vitamin D naturally from the sun alone, due to the shorter days and lower angles throughout the day. I had no idea.

Thank you! I relate; I live in Montréal, close to New England, with similar climate. The current UV Index for Montréal is... 0. And the current UV Index for Boston is... 0.6. (1.6 later today)

I can't find a rigorous academic source right now, but the top web results all say we need at least UV Index 3 for our skin to be able to make enough Vitamin D. I guess summer may work for us, in the Montreal/New England area, but other than that, yeah, you and I will need to get Vitamin D from diet and/or supplements. And fish is expensive, so supplements it is.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#338

Because it's common to hate on antidepressants, I've always personally had a bias against them. For the past 15-20 years, november thru february are basically a writeoff due for me due to seasonal affective disorder. Cold showers, exercise, no alcohol, strict sleeping rituals. Vitamin d. I can still sleep 11 hours and feel like reheated cat shit. Enter citalopram. "It will take up to six weeks to dial in" they said.…

Bessel van der Kolk also mentions in his excellent book "The Body keeps the Score" that the effect of antidepressants is correlated with the source of the depression. If the depression is a comorbidity from early childhood trauma then antidepressants are limited due to trauma-related reshaping of how the brain is organized. Cases like yours or those that a related to traumatic experiences as an adult are more the result of a shallow neurochemical imbalance which antidepressants are able to impact beneficially.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#339

Because it's common to hate on antidepressants, I've always personally had a bias against them. For the past 15-20 years, november thru february are basically a writeoff due for me due to seasonal affective disorder. Cold showers, exercise, no alcohol, strict sleeping rituals. Vitamin d. I can still sleep 11 hours and feel like reheated cat shit. Enter citalopram. "It will take up to six weeks to dial in" they said.…

I'm guessing you can afford spending $300 on light therapy glasses.

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor, but saw 4 seasons of dr. House. Moreover, few hours of Huberman Lab on sleep and light and most importantly, this episode of Additude Mag Podcast on curing SAD and ADHD day-rhytm shifting with light glasses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu4mLgkNc6I

What happens in the seasonal affective disorder season is the sunlight pattern diverges from 6-18 that we evolved with. Without daily reminder of getting enough sun (or sun-like) light at the 6 o'clock⁰, your body clock will drift.

It can start by feeling groggy instead of refreshed in the morning, even if you've slept enough. And can escalate into loosing the will to do anything or even live.

No wonder. You're still an animal. You need to be fed, put to bed, etc. at a specific time. If you try to make your body sleep during the day, and eat and work during what body expects to be night, you won't really sleep and won't really live/work. Enough of not really sleeping and not really living - you mess up your body, your gut biome, your hormonal balance and your brain chemistry. You kind of should get depressed when you do it.

You can steer your body clock with light. Most of us do it, by exposing ourselves to strong (strong enough it won't matter if it includes blue wavelength or not).

But you can do it consciously (and in a way good for you) by putting on light therapy glasses (I'm using Lumiere 3¹, and they are not the only ones, find your own) at 6⁰ everyday, or right after you wake up if you're trying to readjust your rhythm. Or if you have time and want to save $200, use a stationary lamp and just sit in front of it doing nothing. I don't have the time. When readjusting, small doses of melatonin (0.5mg) 1h before sleep will accelerate body clock shift.

But don't listen to me, if you have SAD, you should really listen to that ADHD experts episode.

I feel for you, struggling with that stuff for a long time. Vit D, fish oil (lot of). All lights at home set to reduce intensity after 18. Strict going to bed routine. Still sleep poorly once in a while, but can do things in winter again. Hope it will help :)

0: choose whatever suits you. With small doses of melatonin and discipline in using light glasses you can even flip day and night. Just stay consistent, good farmer always feeds his cows at the same time.

1: at the time of buying ( fall '25 ) they were cheapest and best overall in norway. Solid build, ok battery, can have them on during yoga using attached rubbers and kind of can have them over glasses. Mine are very large and have blue light filter, but I manage 20min without eyeglasses. Medical certificate. Few leds, holo strip, battery and some plastic - my inner Scrooge says it's not worth $285, but everything else was worse and more expensive.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#340
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So 5000 IU is the recommended amount?

This was linked on here a couple of months ago: [The Big Vitamin D Mistake [2017]]( https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5541280/ ) > A statistical error in the estimation of the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for vitamin D was recently discovered; in a correct analysis of the data used by the Institute of Medicine, it was found that 8895 IU/d was needed for 97.5% of individuals to achieve values ≥50 nmol/L.…

Multiple previous discussions:

https://hn.algolia.com/?q=vitamin+d+mistake

Vitamin D is a favorite topic around here:

https://hn.algolia.com/?q=vitamin+d

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