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U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

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Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#331

Post by actionfromafar »

sheikhnbake wrote: post #302
Insanity wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% this. I keep mentioning that to people when they bring up a quite anti-China narrative (or paranoia). Most people in the western hemisphere are way more likely to be negatively impacted by the US than China. Europeans, Canadians etc are less likely to travel to China so of course Chinese media spying would be less immediately detrimental than the spying of US companies. But even when traveling to China, it's les…

We in the US have been so propagandized against China that even relatively progressive people that are completely against the Trump admin think China is an authoritarian hellscape. And while China is obviously not a utopia, I'd be hard pressed to find a metric there that hasn't surpassed our own.

China has no free speech and will start flexing its imperial muscle more now that the US is climbing down from the world stage.

China is alright if you keep your head down and you're not of the wrong ethnicity, locked up in a work camp and not allowed to have kids, or too openly gay or trans and so on.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#332

Post by adev_ »

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #275
adev_ wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European researcher here. There is an other thing that should make America worry. Research grants have been cut everywhere in the US. That cuts deep and terminated many scientific collaborations between USA and the EU Horizons projects in many STEMs research fields. That created a void.... and sciences is like nature: it hates void (and the lack of money...) My perception in the domain is that the resulting void is b…

I certainly believe you, but you're missing the point of the current administration goals. Trump wont be around in 10 years when the consequences of their actions become clear. In fact, he is gone in 3 years, and the admin is only concerned within that timeframe. Their strategy is quite clear: please their base while simultaneously positioning the family for influence on a global scale.

The damage is done.

Scientific collaborations are built on trust, not on an election mandate. And the trust is undeniably damaged.

Which funding agency will accept to bring money to the table if the other partner is likely to run home and abandoned everything on the next election 2y later ?

This was already a problem with long term collaboration with NASA and the back and forth of Congress funding, Trump just extended the same issue to all other STEMs fields.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#333

Post by ryoshoe »

groundzeros2015 wrote: post #294
jandrese wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends if your career depends on some facts not being true. Scientists can seem like a threat to you specifically if for example you need Climate Change to not be real. The last thing you would want is someone bringing evidence and analysis to that reality.

> for example you need Climate Change to not be real Isn’t this the consensus of the major world powers? Is that what these lost PhD students were studying?

Major world powers generally agree on the reality of climate change, the disagreement is on how to address it

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#334

Post by Insanity »

actionfromafar wrote: post #331
sheikhnbake wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We in the US have been so propagandized against China that even relatively progressive people that are completely against the Trump admin think China is an authoritarian hellscape. And while China is obviously not a utopia, I'd be hard pressed to find a metric there that hasn't surpassed our own.

China has no free speech and will start flexing its imperial muscle more now that the US is climbing down from the world stage. China is alright if you keep your head down and you're not of the wrong ethnicity, locked up in a work camp and not allowed to have kids, or too openly gay or trans and so on.

US is regressing on trans rights, abortion, etc. Free speech is under threat with the president “attacking” media institutions. You have daylight murder by federal agents followed by propaganda campaigns to blame the victims themselves or on the Democratic Party to create more political friction.

No one is saying China is perfect in these threads, we’re just saying the US isn’t necessarily better. Two countries can be shitty simultaneously.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#335

Post by adev_ »

john_moscow wrote: post #270
titzer wrote: post #163

It's harder to recruit PhD students and it's harder to fund them. NSF budget was cut 55% in the first year. The administration is doing everything possible to make it clear that no foreigners are welcome here. America is stabbing itself directly in the brain.

Unpopular opinion: there has been a steady decline of standards in the research community in the past decade or two. First reproducibility crisis. Then, some topics becoming political taboo where the unorthodox opinion would get you fired and canceled. The credibility of the science in the West has been falling, and the recent change of administration is predictably axing something that has a perceived strong bias in…

> Then, some topics becoming political taboo where the unorthodox opinion would get you fired and canceled

This is garbage.

What you describe might be the case in some social-sciences circles but never has been the case in most STEMs fields.

If you have a (sensical) unorthodox idea that displease a research director, 10 other research directors will be very happy to dig up this exact idea in a slightly different context.

This is how sciences progress.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#336

Post by 9dev »

actionfromafar wrote: post #331
sheikhnbake wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We in the US have been so propagandized against China that even relatively progressive people that are completely against the Trump admin think China is an authoritarian hellscape. And while China is obviously not a utopia, I'd be hard pressed to find a metric there that hasn't surpassed our own.

China has no free speech and will start flexing its imperial muscle more now that the US is climbing down from the world stage. China is alright if you keep your head down and you're not of the wrong ethnicity, locked up in a work camp and not allowed to have kids, or too openly gay or trans and so on.

Ah, so you do have free speech, I take it? Unless you criticise a certain assassinated far right activist, of course.

And don’t even get me started on flexing an imperial muscle. South America and the EU would like a word.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#337

Post by bayarearefugee »

josephg wrote: post #281
bayarearefugee wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is little to no evidence that the people leaving aren't the top performers, let alone the bottom. According to the article, the majority of the losses were voluntary (people quitting or accepting buyout offers) and not people who were directly laid-off. While this isn't direct evidence of where these people sit on the spectrum from top to bottom performers, my anecdotal life experience suggests that when loss…

At least amongst my circles, that seems so obvious. I don’t know what things are actually like on the ground. But from here in Australia, the subtext of all the ICE news is that foreigners are no longer welcome in the US. And that America is becoming an authoritarian, fascist state. Of course I don’t want to visit the US. There’s no way I’d want to move there right now. I know of multiple US run conferences which are…

> At least amongst my circles, that seems so obvious

Blindingly obvious.

The long-term (very likely permanent in many cases) damage being done to America by the Trump administration through brain-drain, weakening of our own economy, and causing the entire rest of the world to (rightfully) distrust us as a reliable ally and/or trading partner is incalculable.

And it is all pure unforced error driven by a malignant narcissist bent on retribution who is also seemingly being used by a few different actors with their own individual axes to grind as he slips into dementia.

> But from here in Australia, the subtext of all the ICE news is that foreigners are no longer welcome in the US. And that America is becoming an authoritarian, fascist state.

This is also how it feels in the US. (And it isn't only foreigners -- the message is also that "the wrong kind" of American citizens are also no longer welcome in the US)

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#338

Post by garte »

retired wrote: post #177
copperx wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why did you left if you had a great QoL?

Because I was able to get a better QoL elsewhere in the EU. The average worker in The Netherlands has one of the best QoL compared to average workers in other countries. But the Dutch income leveling and benefit system makes it so a high earner doesn’t have a significantly better QoL. Someone earning €30k has roughly the same spending power as someone earning €50k. (edit: net income after tax and benefits is €42k ver…

It gives you more things to buy, doesn't it? That does not necessarily translate to a better life.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#339

Post by Retric »

notahacker wrote: post #66
Retric wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a straw man argument. Losing 10 people becomes a question of their individual qualifications, losing 10,000 people and this is no longer about individuals. Some of the people who left where underperforming but a significant percentage where extremely underpaid while providing extreme value to average Americans.

One would also have to consider the calibre of the individuals hired to replace them, or not, and whether functions such as the National Science Foundation add more or less value to the government than functions the government has chosen to increase its spending on...

> Add more or less value to the government than functions the government has chosen

Talking about average government spending isn’t a reasonable argument because you can only spend money once. If these people cost ~1B/year you aren’t paying for 100+B in spending by cutting them. Instead you get to add exactly 1B in government spending and thus the yardstick is the least efficient billion you’re paying out vs keeping these people.

Not that we actually balance the budget making the idea of short term saving meaningless. Instead it’s about long term consequences.

Re: U.S. government has lost more than 10k STEM PhDs since Trump took office

#340

Post by cratermoon »

I'm sure it's fine. There couldn't have been any Einsteins, Hugo Grotrians, Ingrid Francks, Wilhelm Westphals, James Francks, Otto von Bayers, Lise Meitners, Peter Pringsheims, Fritz Habers, Gustav Hertzs, and Otto Hahns, Hans Bethes, Max Borns, Eugene Wigners, Leo Szilards, Edward Tellers, or John von Neumanns among them.

/s

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