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I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#331

Post by realusername »

Hackbraten wrote: post #178
realusername wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I just can't, I really hate the UI and the software stack. Sure as long as you are in the terminal you don't notice it but at some point you are going to need to open Finder (and Finder really sucks, sorry) and you are going to need to install software and homebrew is in the same category as npm.

> and homebrew is in the same category as npm. Homebrew runs against a curated and tested package repository maintained by a dedicated team of vetted maintainers. NPM is free-for-all with zero curation. Anyone can upload whatever they want.

If has maintainers, well it's clear by now from all the security problems which happened in homebrew first that it's nowhere as diligent as apt or rpm.

Also next problem with it, I really don't want to build everything from source, otherwise I would use Gentoo and not MacOS...

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#332

Post by codeflo »

trinsic2 wrote: post #273
cycomanic wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability. But is it really more sustainable to have a poor quality but easily repairable/swappable laptop where you had to exchange multiple parts over e.g. 10 years, compared to a high quality laptop that lasted the full 10 years and didn't need any repairs? And that is not unusual, my 10 year…

I don't know if I consider Framework laptops poor quality. I wonder if you are considering the impact to the planet though. We have tons of waste everyday from devices that are not built with sustainability in mind. Yes Framework has a ways to go with that, but its the only company that I know thats really doing something about it. We have all these devices that if they are not built around sustainability in contribu…

This is unfortunately a pure “feels over logic” comment that doesn’t engage with the parent poster’s argument at all. The point is impact, not what anyone has “in mind”.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#333

Post by leptons »

codethief wrote: post #215
hakcermani wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a FW13, 3 yrs old, battery was getting weak, i just ordered one from FW and popped out the old one and put in a new one. Same for SSD and memory. This alone makes me stay with FW.

Not trying to change your mind but at least when it comes to exchanging the SSD and battery, you can do the same thing with practically all Thinkpads and Dells? Just did it with my old Dell a couple days ago – I was done in 5 minutes.

Not too long ago, in a galaxy pretty close to here, there were laptops with removable batteries, and switching them required no tools and took all of about 10 seconds.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#334

Post by lotsofpulp »

goku12 wrote: post #330
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy t…

> The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Judging reparability and serviceability the same way as you do with other features is absurd, to put it charitably! It is one feature that you rarely use, but brings you huge value when you do use it. You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading t…

> I talked about this just two days ago. Unlike how you project it, that ideal is entirely feasible if there was enough investment and a large enough market. Instead, OEMs inflict the opposite on the consumers who take it all in without pushing back. These companies choose and spread suboptimal designs that suit their interests and then insist that it is the only viable way forward. It's absurd that consumers also repeat that falsehood.

Talk is cheap. Reality is a better indicator of what is and isn’t feasible, and it’s not like there haven’t been many attempts towards that ideal, but for whatever reason, Apple’s model is the desirable one, for most.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#335

Post by lotsofpulp »

wpm wrote: post #318
ndiddy wrote: post #4

I dual boot Asahi and Mac OS X on my Macbook Air, and haven't had any problems with suspend. IMO the two biggest problems are lack of USB-C display output (although this is less of a problem with the Macbook Pro since you can use HDMI) and having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop). It seems like he's looking for a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't…

It makes me wonder, does Apple have some insane patent on unibody construction? The pre-Retina unibody MacBook Pros were easily upgradable and very solid. They had a ton of room in the chassis, and hell, the first year of them the battery was toollessly removable. Aside from the keyboard and the screen, it was all latches and a few common Phillips #00's. Why have no manufacturers copied this obviously great construct…

I think the costs of milling a solid piece of aluminum that precisely and in those quantities can be “it”.

https://youtu.be/lJx6cF-H__I

I am not an expert, but it seems to be an engineering achievement, given that no one else does it. I doubt milling methods are patent protected, but rather Apple can use its volume and vertical integration to drive costs down and spend more on the chassis than other laptop designers.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#336

Post by supermatt »

> the Framework 16 feels more like a €1200-€1500 laptop at best… but two thousand Euros for this kind of laptop is just absurd.

You are literally buying a whole new laptop because the keyboard is broken and too difficult to replace, instead of a €65 euro replacement part with framework.

With framework, you are paying a 30% premium for the modularity and upgrade potential.

If that’s not important to you then why would you even buy a framework laptop?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#337

Post by wao0uuno »

codethief wrote: post #215
hakcermani wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a FW13, 3 yrs old, battery was getting weak, i just ordered one from FW and popped out the old one and put in a new one. Same for SSD and memory. This alone makes me stay with FW.

Not trying to change your mind but at least when it comes to exchanging the SSD and battery, you can do the same thing with practically all Thinkpads and Dells? Just did it with my old Dell a couple days ago – I was done in 5 minutes.

Official battery replacements are impossible to find for older Lenovo models. I have a 4 year old X13 Yoga and can’t really get a new official battery for it in my country. So while replacement is easy, finding the parts is not.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#339

Post by Levitating »

anamexis wrote: post #298
Levitating wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes feel like people criticize products as if they were offered to them personally. The pricing of a product may be absurd to them but if it were absurd to everyone there wouldn't be a market for it. You can objectively compare the features between two products and criticize them that way. But to criticize the price you need to attach a monetary value to those features. With a framework one of those features…

So you're not allowed to criticize pricing unless you're forced to buy it?

I am not prohibiting anyone from doing anything. I am just saying I don't think people should criticize pricing as if they're forced to buy it.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#340

Post by asno3030 »

I'm okay with spending 1000 on a screen and chassis, under the impression I upgrade the computer every 2 years. Unfortunately when a mainboard cost $1000, it's cheaper to buy a new machine every 2 years. This shouldn't be the case... Look at the chinese producing MoDT boards with full IO for $300 (likely the same shops who work with framework.

I like framework in the sense that I can ship of thesues my laptop the same way I can with a desktop, but at the end of the day, the premium is outrageous. If third parties start making framework compatible boards I'll buy into the ecosystem.

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