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After ruining a treasured water resource, Iran is drying up

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Re: After ruining a treasured water resource, Iran is drying up

#331

Post by geraneum »

ch4s3 wrote: post #317
geraneum wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what did people vote for in that “outside of legal process” referendum? edit: typo

Well the vote was a sham with no secret ballots and separate voting tents for yes and no votes. Armed members of Tudeh were at almost every poling station, there were wide spread reports of members of Mossadegh's party voting multiple times, and the vote count came out to 99.99% "yes'. On top of being illegal it was obviously fraudulent. It is at times called a coup by Mossadegh.

Are the any credible independent sources for these? Just curious.

Re: After ruining a treasured water resource, Iran is drying up

#332

Post by mhb »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #216
mhb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what are the sanctions due to?

Mostly their ongoing cold war with Israel, I think.

How is it a "cold" war when using proxies to attach as well as directly shooting rockets at Israel?

Re: After ruining a treasured water resource, Iran is drying up

#333

Post by wahern »

pphysch wrote: post #315
wahern wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Circa 2010 when Xi came to power, the CPC also essentially destroyed the CIA's footprint in the country, something that was not widely reported in the West. And PRC has done very well since... The PRC was doing just as fine before they executed all the CIA's agents. I don't see any relation. There's never been any hint from either the US or China that those agents were doing anything other than passive intelligence…

> There's never been any hint from either the US or China that those agents were doing anything other than passive intelligence collection, as opposed to actively interfering in domestic Chinese politics. And in any event, the scope of historical CIA operations has always been overblown. In every case I'm aware of, the CIA leveraged a tipping point already well underway to nudge things one way or another. Beyond bein…

> Beyond being self-contradictory (CIA is passive but also they interfere on key issues) this is just false

I said the CIA's intelligence network in China which was dismembered was passive, the same way China's network in the US is passive, not that the CIA is passive everywhere else. But maybe you wouldn't describe either as passive, which is fair, but I don't think that definition fits with how most people conceive of what active political manipulation looks like. Note also I didn't mean to imply that promoting a coup by offering safe harbor is passive in the same sense; I would definitely categorize that as direct domestic political disruption, just not of the kind Hollywood or conspiracy theories depict, which is what people assume when CIA involvement is implicated.

And I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding Hong Kong, Xinjiang, or Taiwan. Is public criticism interfering in domestic politics? Sanctions arguably are, which the US uses regularly around the world, but in the context of China, it's always about money and trade wars and international disputes. The US is active militarily in Taiwan in terms of training and arms supplies, but this is largely at Taiwan's insistence, and the US does much less than Taiwan wants. And none of this involves direct CIA involvement beyond the intelligence collection and sharing networks, both with and without the local government's approval.

I'm curious if you have specific examples. I know the US has proposed sanctions for China's policies in Xinjiang, but I don't remember anything actually coming of it. If I'm misremembering, that's fair, and I understand why China would consider actual sanctions domestic political interference, but note that this is also a cultural divide between Chinese and Western political philosophies--the latter is much more moralistic, and interventions against perceived human rights abuses aren't necessarily considered to violate the principle of state sovereignty.

Re: After ruining a treasured water resource, Iran is drying up

#334

Post by ch4s3 »

geraneum wrote: post #331
ch4s3 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the vote was a sham with no secret ballots and separate voting tents for yes and no votes. Armed members of Tudeh were at almost every poling station, there were wide spread reports of members of Mossadegh's party voting multiple times, and the vote count came out to 99.99% "yes'. On top of being illegal it was obviously fraudulent. It is at times called a coup by Mossadegh.

Are the any credible independent sources for these? Just curious.

Here's a contemporary report from the NYT[1]:

>The ballot was not a secret one. Separate polling places were provided for those voters favoring dissolution and those against, and the vote had to give his name, his address and the number and place of issuance of his identity card.

Time Magazine from the same month in 1953 [2]:

> Da’s in 1946. Last week Premier Mohammed Mossadegh, the man in the iron cot, topped them all with 99.93%.

> This is the way he did it. Having unconstitutionally dissolved the Majlis, Mossadegh ordered a national referendum to judge his act, crying: “The will of the people is above law.” The 1906 Iranian constitution (which Mossadegh as a young revolutionary helped put across) requires a secret ballot.

From a 1953 article in The Middle East Journal [3]:

>Two days after the bloody confrontation of Tudeh mobs and security forces on August 11, 1953, Mosaddeq’s government arrested a large number of its opponents again.

So here we see Tudeh thugs attacking his opponents, and the man himself jailing the opposition.

> Two of Mosaddeq’s closest associates, Dr.Karim Sanjabi, a founder of the National Front and Minister of Education and Dr. Ghol-am-Hossein Sadiqi, the Minister of the Interior advised against dissolving the Majlis and holding a referendum. Both argued that the Majlis had supported Mosaddeq and that it had been the King who had appointed Prime Ministers since the Constitutional Revolution of 1906 subject to parliamentary approval. Without the Majlis, the Shah would be free to oust the Prime Minister and appoint another. Mosaddeq’s reply to both had been the same: Shah jor’at-e in kar ra nadarad [The Shah would not dare].

We also see that Mossadegh's own advisors were cautioning him against trying to dissolve the Majlis, and reminding him that it would allow the Shah to constitutionally remove him. We clearly see a picture of a man, Mossadegh trying to become a dictator.

It would be too much to unpack here but the role of Ayatollah Kashani is also relevant in the story.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/1953/08/04/archives/mossadegh-gets-9...

[2] https://time.com/archive/6795622/iran-99-93-pure/

[3] https://www.pismin.com/10.3751/62.3.15

Re: After ruining a treasured water resource, Iran is drying up

#335

Post by geraneum »

ch4s3 wrote: post #334
geraneum wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the any credible independent sources for these? Just curious.

Here's a contemporary report from the NYT[1]: >The ballot was not a secret one. Separate polling places were provided for those voters favoring dissolution and those against, and the vote had to give his name, his address and the number and place of issuance of his identity card. Time Magazine from the same month in 1953 [2]: > Da’s in 1946. Last week Premier Mohammed Mossadegh, the man in the iron cot, topped them a…

Did you just referenced an article by Kenneth Love? I’m sure you already know but for anyone else who might see this, a U.S. District Judge Michael B. Mukasey in Love v. Kwitny (1989) suggests that he played a role in the coup himself! Love even admits it later! [1]

The link from TIME is an op-ed? Who’s the writer? That’s not a source, credible or otherwise.

- https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/7...

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