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Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

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Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#331
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an aversion to giving bad grades to the inevitable bulk of students who just won't read it.

There is no real way for teacher to check whether I read the book or not. People who read books regularly fail trivia tests and people who did not read them can quick read "about the book" analysis off web and call it a day. And crutially, my inclination to finish assigned book and my willingness to read books in general are unrelated. A kid that reads a lot wont neceasary enjoy and finish assigned books - I know I s…

If your premise is that there is no way to test knowledge, then I can see how you might not want to assign books to be read, but I think there are ways to test knowledge and that reading a book should result in knowledge of the book.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#332
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is pure. You are ignoring quite a lot, and quite a lot that distinguishes that society and its peers different from than the others, far less accomplished. The question is not purity, but facing our own faults, personal and societal, do we give up and indulge them or do we keep our vision and confidence and keep improving? So many push so hard against liberty and justice.

You're moving the goalposts. You made a good point earlier: "for people to survive and thrive, they need politics and institutions that don't kill them and that produce CO2 scrubbers." We know what "politics and institutions" created the CO2 scrubbers ( i.e. our present technologically advanced and prosperous society). It was the ones that displaced and killed the native americans and celebrated it in movies. By your…

This is silly. The 'society' has done very, very many things over the centuries (including other awful ones - slavery, Japanese-American internment, segregation, oppression in Latin America and elsewhere, climate change, etc etc). To pick one and say it's necessary to CO2 scrubbers is just a rhetorical/philosophical game.

That can be fun - we're on HN after all - and even informative to explore, but is not tied to reality.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#333
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pre-schooler do not really read books, that is an absurd claim. And a claim I haven't made. > They puzzle out words and sentences. Exactly, which is introduction to reading. They essentially perceive whole words as glyph until some adult points them to the concept of letters (or if they are very smart, they figure it out themselves). When they enter school they start to learn that systematically. After half a y…

First grade kids are still learning letters and are not reading books yet. Your family is an exception. Second grade kids are NOT reading tons of books yet. That is just untrue. > Exactly and think of what they learn in 6 years. They doubled their age in that time. I do know what they learn in 6 grade. You seem to start with some imaginary learning. > Colloquial books from a century ago are indistinguishable from con…

You clearly have had different experiences than me, most of which I disagree with, but it boils down to the stuff I already wrote. So I cite some parts from the current curriculum from my German state. I translate some parts, but if you want to read it all, use a translator.

So the source is this: https://www.schulportal.sachsen.de/lplandb/lehrplan/88

As a PDF: https://www.schulportal.sachsen.de/lplandb/lehrplan/file/88/...

Classes 1 and 2 are grouped together, so the actual split is at the distinction of the teacher, which is generally the same.

Summary:

    written language acquisition    90 lesson hours
    listening and speaking          50 lesson hours
    writing for yourself and others 40 lesson hours
    writing correctly               40 lesson hours
    reading/properly using media    60 lesson hours
    inspecting language             45 lesson hours
    properly using digital media    13 lesson hours

    optional compulsory:

    at the trace of letters
    from the world of fairy tails
    playing and designing with words
    favorite poems
A single year has about ~200 lesson hours and I think these are mostly done in order.

Goals (I only translated the paragraph about reading):

    Students develop joy in reading, in an exiting reading environment and through diverse reading offerings.  They learn the conditions for their individual reading culture and develop an interest in independently handling of texts.  The Students know texts from different genres and select from various text offerings.  They exercise in "reading for the purpose of comprehension".  The students read texts silently according to simple instructions, develop an understanding of the content in a reasonable amount of time and are able to reproduce it in their own words.  They use different approaches for "reading for the purpose of comprehension" (this is a term of art in German, I do not know the proper term in English).  The students know and use various media formats for learning, news acquirement and entertainment.
written language acquisition 90 lesson hours

    insights into the meaning of reading and writing:
    - writing as a communication tool
    - writing as a system of glyphs
    - free (meaning on their own and fluently) reading and writing

    mastering the structure of written language
    - developing a sophisticated sensing ability (audio, video, rhythm, melody, kinesthetic, tactile)
    - sounds and complexes of sounds
    - letters and sets of letters
    - sound-letter-relation
    - words

    mastering reading techniques
    - analysis and synthesis
    - reading of words, sentences and texts
        - recognizing the shape of words as a whole
        - constructing words from left to right
        - reading across words and lines simultaneously
        - skimming through word groups
        - sentence limits and intonation
        - reading out to people

    knowing techniques for "reading for the purpose of comprehension" of words, sentences and texts
    - repeating the text content with own words
    - checking the read for internal consistence
    - conversing with others about a text
    - reading aloud, quite and silent

    developing a printed writing as a initial writing
    - printed writing as a form of written communication
    - writing self-made small texts for others
    - writing with computers and mobile devices

    application of "cursive" (called Schulausgansschrift = final school writing [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulausgangsschrift])
    - differentiation of macro and micro motoric skills
    - testing of different types of pens/pencils
    - understanding of different letter shapes and connections (in different font sizes)
    - writing of words, sentences and texts
        - recognizing and overcoming individual writing difficulties on your own
        - developing an acceptable writing speed

    getting insights into the design of written works (same word as for scientific papers in German, but of course it is not about that here)
This is done in the first 90 lessons, which at 5 lessons per week, 4 weeks per month means 4-5 months, which fits my claim that they are generally able to read somewhat fluently after half a year. This is the minimum required by the state for every child, talented children will of course be faster.

I do not feel like translating the second part about reading right now, tell me if you actually care about it, I don't feel like being a translator for nothing. It is called "reading/properly using media" and boils down to introduction of literary and basic grammar analysis. It is obviously part of class 2.

> They are 100% distinguishable. By words, by sentence construction, by topics, by the way plot develops. Oh, and mostly by how characters act.

As a child my favorite book was "Emil und die Detektive" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_and_the_Detectives) from 1929, I did not perceive anything to be odd, and it was indistinguishable from modern works for me. I did not think of it as being nearly a century old, that is just a normal child book. Maybe a linguist can tell you how this work obviously must be from that specific era, but a child very much can't tell you. What was also very popular in my class/school at that age was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Investigators#German..., of which the German version is from 1968 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Famous_Five, which is from 1942.

> Literally the only source of interesting books are parents.

And the shelf in the class room and the school library and the local library and random book exchanges on the street and books from friends (might count as from parents for you).

> And no, english and math textbook does not count as fun reading.

No, but they count as reading exercise, which is needed before you read fast enough that you enjoy reading yourself over getting read to and to be able to read in secret below the blanket.

> Neither does Shakespeare assigned in school.

In class 1 or 2?? These kinds of things only came maybe in class 9+.

> There is no infinite supply of fun books coming to kids.

Well, when they gain access to a computer (which is not a good idea, but they are children, so they will), they literally have.

> No one reads books on their way to school these days. They just dont.

Well, five years ago when I used the tram to go to school they definitely did. And my younger brother still carries books in his backpack he is not supposed to have.

> Kids dont read after school except for homework.

Common speak for yourself. In the primary school I still see people sitting reading on the floor.

> This is ridiculous.

Ok, how so?

> Because, unless their parents tried again and again and radncomly hit something fun, they dont even know fun books exist.

How would it be possible to keep it secret from them that child books exist? I don't understand your reasoning.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#334
post #262

I never understand where these anecdotes come from. I live in a rural Red State, a place you'd expect less reading, and my kids, and many of their friends, read full books all the time and have since they were quite young. The curriculum in our public school regularly requires kids to read full books for class, and the kids you'd expect from the homes you'd expect read plenty. So whatever the problem is, if there eve…

You doubt there's a problem because you don't know of it happening in your rural town? In addition to teaching kids to read books, we apparently need to teach adults research and inference fundamentals.

[deleted]

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#335
post #271
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literature is like classical music. One can argue Beethovens 9th symphony is one of the greatest pieces of music of all time, but that doesn’t mean we all have time to sit through 70 minutes a day listening to it. I bet important people don’t even have time to sit and watch a full movie.

You can learn far more from art than from anything else, if you try. Should important people go to religious services? Without that at arts, where do they get deep, full thoughtful perspectives on the world?

Literature, music, art; they are all intertwined aren’t they? I find at their purest form they are striving for similar goals: pulling out from our collective unconscious a life affirming theme that can be viewed in a new perspective.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " massive fanfic archives " Ye gods, that's like saying that youth may not be willing to consume a nutritious, balanced diet but we should rejoice that they are at least consuming vast quantities of sugar and fat. With vanishingly rare exceptions, fanfic is crap in textual form, laden to bursting with literary sins both venal and mortal.

People said all kinds of nonsense about comic books and cheap novels leading kids astray in the past. What actually happened is those kids ended up being slightly better readers. That you don't like something doesn't mean it's actually harmful.

People said that comic books and pulp novels were morally harmful and caused juvenile delinquency, which is indeed nonsense. However that has nothing to do with the quality and depth of the writing so your post is irrelevant.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the time? Being in a train station, Phone. Or a wristwatch if you're that type. > a (class)room (during exam), My last 7+ exams were all done on a computer. That clock was a lot closer than any that happen to be on a wall. > in the kitchen, walking on the street, etc. Phone. Or wristwatch again.

> Phone. Or a wristwatch if you're that type. Sure, but why would I look down, when there is a clock in every direction I look at. I wristwatch would also be analog again. > My last 7+ exams were all done on a computer. That clock was a lot closer than any that happen to be on a wall. I have no clue how your university does prevent cheating, but ok. Here any kind of network-connected(/connectable) device is forbidden…

> when there is a clock in every direction I look at.

This does not reflect my life. Clocks are out there, but not to the point of there being one a just turn of the head away no matter where I am. My phone is the closest device with an accurate sense of time the vast majority of the time.

> wristwatch would also be analog again.

Smart watches exist. Digital wrist watches also exist, but seem to have gone out of fashion.

> I have no clue how your university does prevent cheating,

By not having shit exams. Most (all?) of mine were open-book. I didn't take maths in uni, but they're also done digitally, although I don't think they're open-book. There you probably only get the formulary.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#338
post #335
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can learn far more from art than from anything else, if you try. Should important people go to religious services? Without that at arts, where do they get deep, full thoughtful perspectives on the world?

Literature, music, art; they are all intertwined aren’t they? I find at their purest form they are striving for similar goals: pulling out from our collective unconscious a life affirming theme that can be viewed in a new perspective.

To me, art in different forms; but usually they are separated into those categories.

> life affirming

I wouldn't always say 'affirming'; maybe they engage with life and usually empathize with the characters and the audience.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can infere all the facts and logic perfectly well! But thank you.

Evidently not when you cite one anecdotal counter example and over generalize?

(That's not the same commenter.)

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Phone. Or a wristwatch if you're that type. Sure, but why would I look down, when there is a clock in every direction I look at. I wristwatch would also be analog again. > My last 7+ exams were all done on a computer. That clock was a lot closer than any that happen to be on a wall. I have no clue how your university does prevent cheating, but ok. Here any kind of network-connected(/connectable) device is forbidden…

> when there is a clock in every direction I look at. This does not reflect my life. Clocks are out there, but not to the point of there being one a just turn of the head away no matter where I am. My phone is the closest device with an accurate sense of time the vast majority of the time. > wristwatch would also be analog again. Smart watches exist. Digital wrist watches also exist, but seem to have gone out of fash…

> This does not reflect my life. Clocks are out there, but not to the point of there being one a just turn of the head away no matter where I am.

That part was specifically about train stations and classrooms.

> By not having shit exams. Most (all?) of mine were open-book.

We also now have mostly open-book exams, the rule to be allowed to use everything, that does not do network calls is the rule for open-book exams. Personally I don't like when exams need to be done on a computer, there is always something that breaks and now you are personally responsible for it. With pen and paper you have peace of mind, the only thing is that you need to have a working pen and even that can be borrowed in an emergency.

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