Earlier quoted context omitted.
World class? Then what am I? I frequently work with Copilot and Claude Sonnet, and it can be useful, but trusting it to write code for anything moderately complicated is a bad idea. I am impressed by its ability to generate and analyse code, but its code almost never works the first time, unless it's trivial boilerplate stuff, and its analysis is wrong half the time. It's very useful if you have the knowledge and exp…
Copilot is easily the worst (and probably slowest) coding agent. SOTA and Copilot don't even inhabit similar planes of existence.
Is it a bubble?
331–340 of 605 posts
Re: Is it a bubble?
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
>They are if you define them as such. If a compiler counts as AI then so does literally every other program out there (at least the ones with well-defined inputs and outputs). >Sure. As is natural language (e.g. criminal code). Natural language is too ambiguous and self-referential to count as a programming language, per se. While a subset of natural language can obviously be used to describe programs, we distinguish…
> If a compiler counts as AI then so does literally every other program out there (at least the ones with well-defined inputs and outputs). You seem to be missing some context. We were talking about a system that takes a typed description of what you want as input and outputs code. There is plenty of software, even with well-defined inputs and outputs, which do not do that. But there is a particular type of software…
You are trying to assert an equivalence between compilers and AI systems that simply does not exist. Sure, you could abuse the English language to try to elevate "vibecoding" to the level of "software engineering", and denegrate the AI to the level of a basic compiler. But the rest of us know better and won't accept that. Your line of reasoning about historical job titles and roles also fails.
>But there is a particular type of software that does exactly that. We call it a compiler in my circles.
Compilers don't take "descriptions" as input. They take code as input. The output is perhaps a different kind of code, but it is still code. There has never really been a software engineer or developer who wrote only imprecise English. You don't legitimately get those titles without being competent at using some kind of programming language (as opposed to natural language).
>It was written to express my intent. Your (mis)interpretation does nothing to change my intent and is, frankly, irrelevant.
This is exactly why natural language is unsuitable for writing software. People like you constantly try to abuse the meaning of words to manipulate people. No amount of rhetoric is going to make a vibecoder actually be a software developer or software engineer. Even if you get people to debase the English language, they'll be forced to come up with new words to describe what they actually mean when they speak of morons using AI vs people who actually know what they are doing. I hate how much time is wasted in arguments over what is a reasonable use of words and why it is not good to constantly change the meanings of words.
I'm done with this conversation. I think you're just trolling us at this point. I've made my point and I'm done beating a dead horse.
Re: Is it a bubble?
#333> In many advanced software teams, developers no longer write the code; they type in what they want, and AI systems generate the code for them. What a wild and speculative claim. Is there any source for this information?
This is mission critical robotics software
Re: Is it a bubble?
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it not sort of implied by the stats later: "Revenues from Claude Code, a program for coding that Anthropic introduced earlier this year, already are said to be running at an annual rate of $1 billion. Revenues for the other leader, Cursor, were $1 million in 2023 and $100 million in 2024, and they, too, are expected to reach $1 billion this year." Surely that revenue is coming from people using the services to gen…
A back-of-the-napkin estimate of software developer salaries: There are some ~1.5 million software developers in the US per BLS data, or ~4 million if using a broader definition Median salary is $120-140k. Let's say $120k to be conservative. This puts total software developer salaries at $180 billion. So, that puts $1 billion in Claude revenue in perspective; only about 0.5% of software developer salaries. Even if it…
Re: Is it a bubble?
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
Look, buddy. You propped yourself up as an Experienced Dev doing cool stuff at Profitable Startup and don't understand Advanced Programming, and your entire argument is that you can keep doing the same sort of high quality(FSOV) work you've been doing the past 10 years with AI, just a lot faster. I'm just calling spade a spade. If you didn't want people to comment on your side project given your arguments and the top…
If I were to summarize the intent of my comments in a single sentence, it would be something like "I have been an engineer for a while, and I have been able to do fun stuff with AI quickly." You somehow managed to respond to that by disparaging me as an engineer ("Experienced Dev") and saying the fun stuff I did is low quality ("should have [...] done better work"). It's so far away from the point I was making, and s…
The problem is that your project has basic performance issues - FOUC, render waterfalls - that are central concerns in modern React development. These aren't arbitrary standards I invented to be mean. They're fundamental enough that React's recent development has specifically focused on solving them.
So when you say I'm inventing quality standards (in your now-deleted comment), or that this is just a passion project so quality doesn't matter, you're missing the point. You can't argue from professional authority that AI makes you more productive without compromise, use your work as proof, and then retreat to "it's just for fun" when someone points out the quality issues. Either it demonstrates your workflow's effectiveness or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.
The kids' artwork comparison doesn't work either. You're not a child showing me a crayon drawing - you're a professional developer using your work as evidence in a technical argument about AI productivity. If you want to be treated as an experienced developer making authoritative claims, your evidence needs to support those claims.
I'm genuinely not trying to be cruel here, but if this represents what your AI workflow produces when you're auditing the output, it raises serious questions about whether you can actually catch the problems the AI introduces - which is the entire crux of your argument. Either you just aren't equipped to audit it (because you don't know better), or you are becoming passive in the face of the walls of code that the AI is generating for you.
Re: Is it a bubble?
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just look at what they are stating: > that did exactly what I needed > I have zero knowledge of k8s, helm or configmaps. Obviously this is not anything resembling engineering, or anything a respectful programmer would do. An elevator that is cut lose when you press 0 also works very well until you press 0. The claims of AI writing significant chunks of code come from these sort of people with little experience in pro…
> The claims of AI writing significant chunks of code come from these sort of people with little experience in programming or engineering in general, SPA vibe coders and what not. I'm sorry man but I've been doing this for 25 years and I've worked and studied with some extremely bright and productive engineers. I vouch for the code that I write or that I delegate to an LLM, and believe it or not it doesn't take a mag…
…
> I vouch for the code that I write or that I delegate to an LLM, and believe it or not it doesn't take a magician to write a k8s spec file…
I have been writing code since 1995.
That has zero relevance to my skill at rolling out deployments in a technology I know nothing about.
One of the two things you’ve said is false:
Either a) you do know what you’re talking about, or b) you are not confident in the results.
It can’t be both.
It sounds to me like you’re subscribed heavily into a hype train; that’s fine, but your position, as described, leaves a lot to desired, if you’re trying to describe some wide trend.
Here my anecdote: major cloudflare outages.
Hard things are hard. AI doesn’t solve that. Scaffolding is easy; ai can solve that.
Scaffolding is a reliable thing to rely on with ai.
Doing it for K8s configuration, if you don’t know k8s is stupid. I know what I’m talking about when I say that. Having it help you if you do know what you’re doing is perfectly legit.
Claiming it did help when claiming you have, and I quote, “zero knowledge” (but you actually do) is hype. Leave it on LinkedIn dude. :(
Re: Is it a bubble?
#337A lot of the debate here swings between extremes. Claims like “AI writes most of the code now” are obviously exaggerated especially coming from a nontechnical author but acting like any use of AI is a red flag is just as unrealistic. Early stage teams do lean on LLMs for scaffolding, tests and boilerplate, but the hard engineering work is still human. Is there a bubble? Sure, valuations look frothy. But like the dotc…
More importantly, the web is now dominant for enterprise SaaS applications, which is a category of software that did not really exist before the web. And the web post–dot-com bubble spawned a lot of unicorns.
In short, there was an investment bubble. But the core tech was fine.
AI feels like one of those things where the tech is similarly transformational (even more so, actually). It’s another investment bubble predicated on the price of GPUs, which is mostly making Nvidia very rich right now.
Right now the model makers are getting most of the funding and then funneling non-trivial amounts to Nvidia (and their competitors). But actually the value creation is in applications using the models these companies create. And the innovation for that isn’t coming from the likes of Anthropic, OpenAI, Mistral, X.ai, etc. They are providing core technology, but they seem to be struggling to do productive things in terms of UX and use cases. Most of the interesting things in this space are coming from smaller companies figuring out how to use the models these companies produce. Models and GPUs are infrastructure, not end-user products.
And with the rise of open-source models, open algorithms, and exponentially dropping inference costs, the core infrastructure technology is not as much of a moat as it may seem to investors. OpenAI might be well funded, but their main UI (ChatGPT) is surprisingly limited and riddled with bugs. That doesn’t look like the polished work of a company that knows what they are doing. It’s all a bit hesitant and copycat. It’s never going to be a magic solution to everyone’s problems.
From where I’m sitting, there is clear untapped value in the enterprise space for AI to be used. And it’s going to take more than a half-assed chat UI to unlock that. It’s actually going to be a lot of work to build all of that. Coding tools are, so far, the most promising application of reasoning models. It’s easy to see how that could be useful in the context of ERP/manufacturing, CRM, traditional office applications, and the financial world.
Those each represent verticals with many established players trying to figure out how to use all this new stuff — and loads more startups eager to displace them. That’s where the money is going to be post-bubble. We’ve seen nothing yet. Just like after the dot-com bubble burst, all the money is going to be in new applications on top of the new infrastructure. It’s untapped revenue. And it’s not going to be about buying GPUs or offering benchmark-beating models. That’s where all the money is going currently. That’s why it is a bubble.
Re: Is it a bubble?
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
Regarding that PS: > This strikes me as paradoxical given my sense that one of AI’s main impacts will be to increase productivity and thus eliminate jobs. The allegation that an "Increase of productivity will reduce jobs" has been proven false by history over and over again it's so well known it has a name, "Jevons Paradox" or "Jevons Effect"[0]. > In economics, the Jevons paradox (sometimes Jevons effect) occurs whe…
If that's the case, then why do we live in this late capitalist hell hole? Any technology that gets developed will be used for its worst, most dehumanizing purpose possible. That's just the reality of the shity society we live in.
All it takes for evil to persevere is good people to sit by and do nothing. Don't like the situation you're in, do something about it. Preferably other than doomscrolling, but hey, you do you.
Re: Is it a bubble?
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not. And if your team is doing this you're not "advanced." Lots of people are outing themselves these days about the complexity of their jobs, or lack thereof. Which is great! But it's not a +1 for AI, it's a -1 for them.
Part of the issue is that I think you are underestimating the number of people not doing "advanced" programming. If it's around ~80-90%, then that's a lot of +1s for AI
Re: Is it a bubble?
#340> I haven’t met anyone who doesn’t believe artificial intelligence has the potential to be one of the biggest technological developments of all time, reshaping both daily life and the global economy.
You’re trying to weigh in on this topic and you didn’t even _talk_ to a bear?