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The Junior Hiring Crisis

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Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#331

Post by johnnyanmac »

x0x0 wrote: post #175
hex4def6 wrote: post #14

> We used to have a training ground for junior engineers, but now AI is increasingly automating away that work. Both studies I referenced above cited the same thing - AI is getting good at automating junior work while only augmenting senior work. So the evidence doesn’t show that AI is going to replace everyone; it’s just removing the apprenticeship ladder. Was having a discussion the other day with someone, and we c…

My 2 cents: they're too expensive. We had code school grads asking for $110-$130. Meanwhile, I can hire an actual senior engineer for $200 and he/she will be easily 4x as productive and useful, while also not taking a ton of mentorship time. Since even that $110 costs $140, it's tough to understand how companies aren't taking a bath on $700/day.

If you're hiring in SF or NY, then the problem explains itself. Even a single young new grad needs that much to so live.

you can't have rent at 3.5k a month and not expect 6 figures when requiring in-office work. old wisdom of "30% of salary goes to rent" suggest that that kind of housing should only be rented if you're making 140k. Anyone complaining about junior costs in these areas needs to join in bringing housing prices down.

Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#332

Post by johnnyanmac »

icedchai wrote: post #254
x0x0 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 2 cents: they're too expensive. We had code school grads asking for $110-$130. Meanwhile, I can hire an actual senior engineer for $200 and he/she will be easily 4x as productive and useful, while also not taking a ton of mentorship time. Since even that $110 costs $140, it's tough to understand how companies aren't taking a bath on $700/day.

Yep, the value isn't there. I'm on a very lopsided team, about 5 juniors to 1 senior. Almost all of the senior time is being consumed in "mentorship", mostly slogging through AI slop laden code reviews. There have been improvements, but it's taking a long time.

Have you considered regulting AI use, or is it just easier to be mad at the workers and do nothing?

Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#333

Post by johnnyanmac »

venturecruelty wrote: post #287
johnnyanmac wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must ask once again why we are having these 5+ round interview cycles and we aren't able to filter for qualities that the work requires of its talent. What are all those rounds for if we're getting engineers who aren't as valued for the team's needs at the end of the pipeline?

It's the cargo cult kayfabe of it all. People do it because Google used to do it, now it's just spread like a folk religion. But nobody wants guilds or licensure, so we have to make everyone do a week-long take-home and then FizzBuzz in front of a very awkward committee. Might as well just read chicken bones, at least that would be less humiliating.

Yeah, I'd be more than fine with licensing if I didn't have to keep going through 5 rounds of trivia only to be ghosted. Let me do that once and show I can code my way out of a paper bag.

Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#334

Post by johnnyanmac »

ponector wrote: post #304
johnnyanmac wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must ask once again why we are having these 5+ round interview cycles and we aren't able to filter for qualities that the work requires of its talent. What are all those rounds for if we're getting engineers who aren't as valued for the team's needs at the end of the pipeline?

I can understand such process for freshman, but for industry veteran with 10+ years of experience, with with recommendation from multiple senior managers? And yet welcome to leetcode grind.

Yeah, I was told I'd get less of this as I got real experience. More additions to the pile of lies and misconceptions.

If you need to fizzbuzz me, fine. But why am I still making word search solver project in my free time as if I'm applying for a college internship?

Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#335

Post by johnnyanmac »

getnormality wrote: post #323
johnnyanmac wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must ask once again why we are having these 5+ round interview cycles and we aren't able to filter for qualities that the work requires of its talent. What are all those rounds for if we're getting engineers who aren't as valued for the team's needs at the end of the pipeline?

There's no fix for this problem in hiring upfront. Anyone can cram and fake if they expect a gravy train on the other end. If you want people to work after they're hired, you have to be able to give direct negative feedback, and if that doesn't work, fire quickly and easily.

>Anyone can cram and fake if they expect a gravy train on the other end.

If you're still asking trvia, yes. Maybe it's time to shift from the old filter and update the process?

If you can see in the job that a 30 minute PR is the problem, then maybe replace that 3rd leetcode round with 30 minutes of pair programming. Hard to chatGPT in real time without sounding suspicion.

Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#336

Post by loeg »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #328
loeg wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, the cross-pollination of developers moving around is good for employers.

Good to minimize bus factor, bad when you want to innovate and expand your business. So I guess it's ideal for this slowing economy focused on "maintenance".

No. Good in that developers are exposed to outside skills and ideas they wouldn't be by spending 10 years doing the same thing.

Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#337

Post by zelphirkalt »

lordnacho wrote: post #134

I suspect this junior hiring crisis thing is linked to the ridiculous hoops people are put through to get a job these days. When I was starting, you were checked for potential as a trainee. In my case, options trading. They checked over that you could do some mental arithmetic, and that you had a superficial idea of what trading was about. Along with a degree from a fancy university, that was all that was needed. I d…

Currently, it is not just juniors. It is people of all seniorities, who have to jump through ridiculous hoops, to be believed, that they are any good.

Built most of the software of a company where I worked for 7y from humble beginnings to >80 people. Still gotta line up for a 4h on-site assessment! Built tons of free time projects, some more complex than anything one would usually build on the job. Still gotta have live coding interviews and no one can be arsed to even check my publicly available repos...

Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#338

Post by HaroldCindy »

daheza wrote: post #93
HaroldCindy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to develop new etiquette around submitting AI-generated code for review. Using AI for code generation is one thing, but asking other people review something that you neither wrote nor read is inconsiderate of their time.

I'm getting AI generated product requirements that they haven't read themselves. It is so frustrating. Random requirements like "this service must have a response time of 5s or less" - "A retry mechanism must be present". We have a specific SLA already for response time and the designs don't have a retry mechanism built. The bad product managers have become 10x worse because they just generate AI garbage to spray at…

Oof. My general principle is "sending AI-authored prose to another human without at least editing it is rude". Getting an AI-generated message from someone at all feels rude to me, kind of like an extreme version of "dictated but not read" being in a letter in the old days.

Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#339

Post by johnnyanmac »

ryandrake wrote: post #318
johnnyanmac wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would having an idea of where to direct their career be a red flag?

I didn’t say anything about career direction. I’m talking about what project or part of the project. I have worked with developers who insist that they only want to work on this very narrow section of the code, and won’t consider branching out somewhere else, and that kind of attitude often comes from people who are difficult in other ways to work with.

You implied it here:

>Strong desire to work on a specific piece of the code (or to not work on one) might even in some cases be a red flag.

I understand an engineer should compromise. But if you want to specialize in high performance computing and you're pigeonholed into 6 months of front end web, I can understand the frustration. They need to consider their career too. It's too easy for the manager to ignore you of you don't stand up for yourself. Some even count on it and plan around the turnover.

Of course, if they want nothing other than kernel programming as a junior and you simply need some easy but important work done for a month, it can be unreasonable. There needs to be a balance as a team.

Re: The Junior Hiring Crisis

#340

Post by johnnyanmac »

loeg wrote: post #336
johnnyanmac wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good to minimize bus factor, bad when you want to innovate and expand your business. So I guess it's ideal for this slowing economy focused on "maintenance".

No. Good in that developers are exposed to outside skills and ideas they wouldn't be by spending 10 years doing the same thing.

I don't think it's good or bad per se. Depends o ntje company needs and the individual desite.

But as someone who originally wanted to be a specialist (or at the very leastT-shaped), I see a lot more problem in fostering specialists than generalists under this model. Sometimes you do just need that one guru who breathes C++ to come in and dig deep into your stack. Not always, but the value is irreplaceable.

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