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The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

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Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#331
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reputation is pretty much worthless. Patient reviews are largely based on how nice the doctor seems (bedside manner) and have no correlation with actual clinical outcomes.

That's with today's system not the proposed system.

The proposed system makes no sense. People have no way to accurately determine whether a clinician was telling the truth.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#332
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FSAs are insane, conceptually. "Guess how much money you're spending in a year on healthcare! But beee caaareful: if you guess too high, YOU LOSE IT" I still used mine while I still had access to one, but it was grumpy-making and was usually almost more trouble than it was worth.

Unless you have an approved gym membership for which it can be used for ! With 30% discount !!

where "approved" means approved by the FSA plan administrator, not by your doctor, even with prescription? Which gym was this? a large chain? IME very few gyms are approved. (which is bad health policy, considering how good they are at preventative medicine.)

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless your a homeowner with a mortgage, then it's almost always better to itemize

Not so much anymore. The standard deduction for a married couple is now above 30k. It would take a large mortgage to pay that kind of interest in a single year. (Principle is not deductible; only interest)

That's going to skew towards blue states and metros.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pharmtech: "With your current insurance we can't sell you this medicine at any price. We're under an agreement." Me: "Okay, what if we don't go through insurance?" Pharmtech: "$45 for the prescription." Me: "That's a bit higher than last time." Pharmtech: performs some sort of incantation "Okay, $12." Me: "How did we go from not at any price to $12?" for those of you keeping score at home, the medicine was generic co…

Medicine not in formulary. Their clinical department decided it was not worth covering for $reasons. The Pharmacy, likely to be considered a preferred pharmacy, signed a contract to be bound by that company's clinical formulary for policyholders. $45 was probably cash price, the they can let it go for if they do their ordering through a pharmacy supply group. $12 may be a price with a discount program like GoodRx app…

> Don't know how GoodRx works, but been around long enough to know you're probably the product.

- GoodRx was penalized $1.5m by the FTC 2/2023 [0] for sharing sensitive personal health information with third-party advertising companies (Facebook, Google, et al), without user consent. Then in 2024 it paid a $25m settlement arising from that action [1].

- GoodRx isn't subject to HIPAA, it can legally share "non-medical" information, i.e. your prescriptions, which often have a one-to-one (or one-to-few) correspondence to specific conditions. Hence, sidestepping HIPAA.

- its business model relies on collecting user data, which may be a concern for privacy-conscious individuals.

[0]: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/02/...

[1]: https://www.hunton.com/privacy-and-information-security-law/...

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the magic words in US Health Care: "What is the cash price?" It's usually less than you think and often worth avoiding the insurance company hassle. Then you can just get reimbursed with your FSA or HSA anyway.

>Here are the magic words in US Health Care: "What is the cash price?" I'm not so sure about that. Especially in a hospital setting. Many years ago, I was admitted to the hospital for several days as it was suspected (wrongly, but that's another issue with the perverse incentives in US "healthcare") that I had MRSA and the doctor wanted me on IV antibiotics while testing proceeded. I spent three days in the hospital,…

Right, that's the part that most consumers don't understand about inpatient bills and insurance claims. They hear stories about a "$100 Tylenol" or whatever but those line items often don't actually impact the amount charged to the patient's health plan. Many of the numbers are completely artificial and essentially only serve as placeholders for the accounting and ERP systems. I'm not trying to defend that system but for complex path dependency reasons it's difficult for anyone to reform.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#336
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are clinicians any more competent than in other countries with similar levels of training? In Europe, UK, or here in Australia for example, the quality of public care seems to be competitive with the US, and the quality of private care here seems often even better. I've heard this "US healthcare is expensive but at least it's good" thing a few times, but never with any particular evidence, and from the few numbers I…

I didn't know American health care is known to be good. According to random lists I find it ranks pretty average. See numbeo it's 39 for Health Care Index https://www.numbeo.com/health-care/rankings_by_country.jsp

Much of this will be because most Americans struggle for access to healthcare. That's the bigger issue of course, but here we're specifically focusing on those who do have access, and even with access, American healthcare isn't necessarily better than its peers.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#337

I've seen a lot of upcoding on my bills and it really aggravates me. It's fraud and the doctors should be happy that the insurance company is just reducing their payments instead of dropping them or trying to get them prosecuted. When someone loads their grocery bag full of cosmetics and razor blades, they get on the news and YouTube, but when a doctor systematically bills for services he didn't perform to the tune o…

> When someone loads their grocery bag full of cosmetics and razor blades, they get on the news and YouTube What does this part mean? I don't follow.

They're talking about shoplifting. Specifically hiding high dollar items in with their groceries, a practice akin to just adding a little bit extra to a medical bill for services not performed.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet this has absolutely nothing to do with the claim that "Insurance companies hold tremendous leverage over care providers, up to and including the power to effectively put them out of business on a whim.", you're not even engaging with the argument at all.

It doesn't? All the money is going to them, and they're massively larger than the insurers, but it's the insurers with all the leverage? Why isn't more of the money going to the insurers then? https://nationalhealthspending.org/

Do you make this argument in any other scenario? I'm sure all merchants who accept credit cards combined make WAY more than Visa/MC, but I think most would agree Visa has much more leverage over a corner shop that accepts Visa than the other way around.

There are 5 or 6 big insurance companies, maybe 2000 if we count all of the small ones and 400K medical practices. So even by this very simple money=leverage argument, each individual practice has far less money than the insurance company they are dealing with. So if more money = more leverage then these same numbers prove the opposite claim.

So its probably fair to say that the picture isn't as simple as money=leverage.

If a medical practice and an insurance company get into a dispute and one of them decides to not work together, the practice loses say 1/5th-1/10th of its customers, the insurance company loses 1/100000th of its revenue. I call that leverage.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard of care for persistent symptoms compatible with acute bacterial rhinosinusitis for more than 10 days IS prescribing antibiotics.

Just asked my wife (ER doctor). She says it's 2 weeks for adults, 3 weeks for kids.

I also confirmed with a MD friend of mine, 10 days or more of worsening symptoms could be indicative of bacterial sinusitis. For adults you can begin the treatment on that diagnosis. You can also start antibiotic treatments before 10 days in certain conditions but it is generally not recommended. Just because a patient shows up on 11th day with worsening symptoms doesn’t mean you have to wait 2 weeks.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#340

This sort of thing gets to two critical problems of the American system: 1. It is largely designed to make money, not actually help patients. So every step in the healthcare chain that can extract a bit of value will do so, largely to boost profits. 2. Insane complexity with limited transparency. How much will something cost? Hard to tell. Will it be covered? Who knows? On the opacity, I have one informative anecdote…

Fire insurance protects against the rare disaster where there's a fire.

Flood insurance protects against the rare disaster where there's a flood.

Health insurance protects against the rare disaster where somebody's actually able to get healthcare.

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