Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026 • Hacker News Board

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#331

Post by cess11 » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:16 AM UTC

I'm not following this as closely as I probably should, but it seems to me to be more of a data collection and retention scheme than something that'd actually be useful to me and my neighbours in a crisis.

In part because cash is common in my part of Sweden, which is likely annoying to the bureaucrats and oligarchs. Cash is nice because a transaction does not involve a measure of creditworthiness while only leaving an indirect trail, and this 'offline' thingie they're going for probably does and besides keeping personal data available 'offline' for performing such stratifications of people it also (theoretically) allows for a phasing out of cash also in crisis and armed conflict.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#332

Post by quacksilver » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:16 AM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #219

g-mork wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EMV standard has long supported an offline transaction flow. AFAIK it was the default almost everywhere in Finland circa 2011, contactless there was almost always instantaneous. Digging into why that was compared to the invariable wait when using contactless in the UK revealed this flow. The card has a variety of risk counters on it that allow it to securely decide whether an offline transaction can proceed, at l…

Yes the EMV standard has offline card payments baked into it, and most banks in the EU and UK used to use offline transactions for contactless. Your experiences in the UK are almost certainly linked to the card issuer you were using (was it a Monzo card by any chance), and nothing to do with it being the UK. The vast majority of the legacy banks have always used offline transactions for contactless. However there has…

I used to have an online maestro card (was solo and now known as debit mastercard) and an offline card (was switch, now also known as debit mastercard) from a UK bank, due to having two current accounts there.

The offline card was from a current account with an overdraft and also worked as a cheque guarantee card, for cheques up to £250 under the (discontinued ~2011) cheque guarantee scheme[0] and had a special hologram on the back. The retailer would watch you sign the cheque and write details about you, the card and any CCTV etc. on the back of the cheque. I imagine the offline behavior of the card was similar, and was a carry over from that.

The online card was from a basic account with no overdraft facility and acted a bit like a prepaid debit card.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque_guarantee_card

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#333

Post by raffraffraff » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:17 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

My Garmin watch has Garmin Pay, which works even if I don't have my phone with me. I think I just presumed that there is a bank balance cached somewhere in the app so that an attempt to spend up to a hard limit or that amount will work.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#334

Post by quacksilver » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:19 AM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #329

ta1243 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 80s and 90s in the UK you just signed. The card imprint was embossed by the machine which put it onto the carbon, and that was sent off to the bank for payment later in the week, like cheques. I last used a carbon credit card in the early 00s. Electronic swipe and sign for a credit card had gone pretty much everywhere I went except the US by about 2010

I was charmed to have my US credit card read by an imprinter at a corner shop in the UK, circa 2014.

I last used a carbon imprinter in the UK in 2013. We hired out car roof boxes / cycle carriers at a summer job I had.

I am not sure how valid it was, though they would take a deposit and a card imprint until we got the car accessories back.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#335

Post by qingcharles » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:23 AM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #248

SpicyUme wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to think the last time I saw one in use, last year or a couple years ago when there were large scale power outages. Of course the newer cards lack raised digits so I'm not sure how well they worked for keeping business moving. I had cash.

As I recall, the slips do have a spot where you can just write the numbers down. But widespread lack of raised numbers makes them hard to use. I think all my cards have been reissued flat by now.

Yeah, I've had the cashier just hand-write in the numbers on the sheet when it's a flat card.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#336

Post by Daniel_sk » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:26 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #38

al_borland wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see why not, they can be run just like a credit card through the same network. When a debit card prompts for a PIN, don’t enter it, press submit, and it runs as credit instead of debit, but functionally works the same as far as the card-holder is concerned. It might take slightly longer to settle, and the merchant likely gets charged higher fees, but it works just fine. When I got my first debit card 20+ year…

Having a credit card requires some amount of trustworthiness. Anyone can get a debit card, they even sell it in supermarkets.

This is not the case of debit cards in Europe. Debit cards are tied to bank accounts. Most people only have a debit card or don’t even know what a credit card is (or what the difference is). We just call them “cards”.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#337

Post by qingcharles » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:27 AM UTC

Etheryte wrote: post #5

Some context might be useful here. I spent some time living Sweden not too long ago and Swedes practically don't use cash. It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal, to the point that most don't have any at all. Digital payments are very convenient and deeply integrated, so long as you have a local ID which allows you use the local payment system Swish etc. This worked nice…

It's funny. I live in rural USA and I overheard a girl say she wouldn't date a guy who uses a card as it wasn't very manly. He needs to use cash apparently. Where I live cards are seen as controlled by "them" and allow the government to spy on you and come after you for taxes.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#338

Post by tossandthrow » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:27 AM UTC

blurrybird wrote: post #173

daneel_w wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to differentiate common purchases from "large" purchases in this discussion. I'm certain you don't think there's something shady going on, or tax evasion happening, if someone uses cash in the grocery store or at Pressbyrån, or to pay for some little gadget or whatever at Kjell&Co. This is what people think of when someone "uses cash". Not hauling tens of thousands to buy a used car or to settle the bill for…

FWIW I am Australian and we have a similar adoption rate of cashless payments. If a merchant tries to promote cash options I immediately think they’re doing it for tax evasion reasons - not because of the touted reason that “card payments cost more to process” (they don’t once you factor in the cost of handling cash).

Here is likely not that much handling cost for an independent hairdresser just earning their own (quite meager) salary.

In the EU you can not charge a card fee on consumer transactions, so the merchant has the eat the cost.

If your revenue is - 2-3000 Eur a month, payment fees (and terminal subscription fees) can have a big impact.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#339

Post by quacksilver » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:29 AM UTC

ErrantX wrote: post #118

mananaysiempre wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those work because they're just a normal visa transaction I wouldn’t be so sure about that. In some payment situations you’re asked whether you’d like to have the transaction go through as debit or as credit—so those two must be different somewhere. And probably in more than just a bit in a packet, as, for example, paying with debit Visas or MasterCards (normal ones, not Electron resp. Maestro) in the Netherlands (…

They use largely the same rails/network (for example Mastercard). The only meaningful difference is on how and when funds are reconciled. Some payment providers ask up front to simplify the flows as it's not totally trivial to determine what sort of card it is, and also because different fees apply - historically some merchants added specific fees to basket etc. (less so nowadays but the UI convention sticks)

From memory, online and offline transactions are usually split out by BIN number (first six digits)

The BIN will tell you which bank was the issuer and which class of card you have, like standard or premium, though most readers probably don't take that into account beyond the card scheme and card type associated with the range that the individual BIN is in. Many banks will have multiple BINs for the same card type if they are large.

Credit / online debit / offline debit usually get different ranges. The reader gets a list of the ranges when it updates and they don't change super often. Offline readers can be configured to reject cards with a number in an online only range.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#340

Post by Brajeshwar » Sat, Oct 04, 2025, 6:31 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

I got my first Credit Card in 2000 (I think that was 2000 or may be 2001). Credit Card swiping devices were rare and many a store just use that Imprinter thingy, and I sign on the carbon papers. That was an offline process. This was in Bombay (INDIA).

I think something similar to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter