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UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

petition.parliament.uk

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Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#331

Post by Avamander »

iamnothere wrote: post #328
Avamander wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One can look around the US today to see why this lack of ID may be a good thing. You have an identity though. You use other things as an ID in the end. Often shoehorned into fulfilling that task and mostly very cumbersome. That's why it can be stolen, that's why "identity theft" is a multi-billion dollar thing. Thats why you keep your SSNs and I guess also CC#s rather tightly guarded. > Protestors who take steps to…

> You have an identity though. You use other things as an ID in the end. Often shoehorned into fulfilling that task and mostly very cumbersome. My exact point, glad we agree. Very cumbersome indeed, and not centralized enough to use for turnkey totalitarianism. (Slow, plodding, inefficient totalitarianism, sure. But see my above post for why that isn’t as much of an existential threat.) > There's nothing about an ele…

> Electronic ID provides the means to tie together multiple systems that must currently be matched manually, with frequent false positives/negatives.

I don't think a totalitarian government cares much about false positives though.

> It creates the means to quickly build a system that could “switch off” a person’s ability to function in society, and improves the ability of security services to pool data about individuals from disparate sources with a high level of confidence.

I also don't think that bunch of different places to turn off someone's ability to participate in a society is a meaningful difference in practice. Even if it takes slightly longer or has false positives like you describe, it still achieves the totalitarian goal.

> A price I’m willing to pay, given the behavior of our political establishment and the recent attitude of my fellow citizens.

I unfortunately struggle to see the results of this sacrifice to be honest.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#332

Post by xp84 »

agedclock wrote: post #309
asdff wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply things that correlate to social involvement I suppose. Quacks like a duck and all.

Not at all. It is simply a score based on your ability to manage credit, it is scored differently based on the company making the assessment. In reality that means "have you paid off what you owe in the manner that was agreed" and does the person have any red flags e.g. County Court Judgements against their name or residence. There are people I know that manage it properly and those that don't. It has nothing to do w…

It doesn’t inherently have to do with wealth and class, however, all of these things are so tightly correlated that it loses barely any fidelity and just saves you a little bit of time to assume that someone with an 815 credit score is law-abiding, upper-middle or high social class, and has a medium to high net worth, and that somebody with a 550 credit score is at least one of the following: poor, criminal history, and a low social class.

None of this should be that surprising: it’s hard to make all of your debt payment payments on time if you’re either broke or in jail.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#333

Post by agedclock »

bamboozled wrote: post #192
reaperducer wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sky didn't say anything. The two talking heads from two different political parties said things. As an outsider, I have no idea if Sky News is "right wing" or not. I watch Sky and BBC because those are the two British services I can get where I am. (And occasionally ITV, but it seems to be all potatoes, and no meat.) I note that instead of addressing the topic of discussion, you deflect into another topic. Why is tha…

Sure, but it’s not like there media outlets just select any old person to discuss any old topic. They can choose who they want to be the mouthpiece for a certain topic and make sure they get plenty of airtime to say whatever is required…

Legally they have to provide "Due Impartiality" on the TV network. So they normally invite several people so they can claim they have provided balance.

I actually don't like that they are legally required they do this as often it becomes a shouting match between two participates. I want to hear someone's argument in full.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#334

Post by xp84 »

reaperducer wrote: post #159
iamnothere wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, governments do need a centralized common identity if they intend to build something like a social credit system. Those without adequate experience dealing with the US system, for instance, may assume that the government already has your info and thus such a system is redundant. However, this is simply not the case. US government systems are a hodgepodge of different systems built by different vendors, over diffe…

US government systems are a hodgepodge of different systems built by different vendors, over different computing eras, many of which lack a primary key relationship with something like your social security number (the current “default” identifier). This is a feature, not a bug. Even though we're only at the very beginning of the various U.S. systems being merged, we're already seeing it being abused. (One example: St…

Honestly with things like abortion, where there are sincerely held beliefs with good points on both sides of it, I think it would be less work for literally everyone to truly leave it to the states and everybody just moves to the nearest or most convenient state that aligns with their values. I’m so sick of this one issue being a perennial divisive force. Both sides have a point. Go live wherever you agree with the policies. And if the blue states want to operate abortion clinics for runaway teens from red states that’s fine, then they can also build dorms for them and pay for them to stay there. Red states can do the opposite and build state-sponsored birthing centers and pay for childcare for the runaway teens from blue states whose parents want to force them to terminate.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#335

Post by agedclock »

bamboozled wrote: post #161
reaperducer wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm somewhat indifferent to the concept of a Digital ID. The problem is that the UK government's reason for introducing it doesn't make sense - to 'solve' illegal workers, when the UK already has a (digital) system for proving right to work I saw some British politicians discussing this on Sky last week, and I really don't see the point of the British digital ID. They say having yet another new ID number will make th…

Sky is a really right wing partisan channel though, ofc they are going to say negative things about the incumbent government or basically anything it does. Not to say the idea is good or bad, but how people watch hyper-partisan media and draw any conclusions from it is beyond me.

> Sky is a really right wing partisan channel though, ofc they are going to say negative things about the incumbent government or basically anything it does

You are pretending as if Sky is like Fox News in the UK. It is more like a slightly right of centre network.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#336

Post by xp84 »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #239
skeletal88 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our system in Estonia works well. I don't get the resistance to a digital/national id in other countries. To us it is quite bizarre. Some have explained it with a lack of trust between citizens and the country. But without such digital id it is impossible to have such digital government services as we have here. The government services need to verify and autheticate the citizen, so they only access their own data and…

Problem with a digital ID is that I don't want to use it beyond government service. But now there is discussion that people need to identify themselves for any and all online services. If an ID is proliferated the legislative change to force ID checks is minimal. If it weren't just Estonia and government ID would be more widely spread, it would take less than 24h for the EU to enforce borders online.

I’d point out that the privilege to break the law simply “because online” is a pretty new thing. People in 1980 couldn’t automatically conduct transactions that were illegal, and access materials, their government deemed illegal, etc. If a book was banned in your country, it was likely just not available for you.

I really think people need to stop believing that the Internet solves all the problems of sovereign states doing anti-freedom things. That’s a part of life, and enabling people to evade laws, which may indeed be democratically voted upon, is not an automatic virtue. I don’t even think laws get changed because of this type of evasion, it just makes citizens more complacent about the laws that get passed because they know they can evade them anyway, but also it means most everyone is technically a criminal. Does anybody think people in those states that outlawed Internet porn stopped consuming it? But how many people are doing anything to change those laws? I don’t think very many. They’re just using a VPN. So the problem of oppressive laws isn’t being solved this way.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#337

Post by iamnothere »

Avamander wrote: post #331
iamnothere wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have an identity though. You use other things as an ID in the end. Often shoehorned into fulfilling that task and mostly very cumbersome. My exact point, glad we agree. Very cumbersome indeed, and not centralized enough to use for turnkey totalitarianism. (Slow, plodding, inefficient totalitarianism, sure. But see my above post for why that isn’t as much of an existential threat.) > There's nothing about an ele…

> Electronic ID provides the means to tie together multiple systems that must currently be matched manually, with frequent false positives/negatives. I don't think a totalitarian government cares much about false positives though. > It creates the means to quickly build a system that could “switch off” a person’s ability to function in society, and improves the ability of security services to pool data about individu…

This reply tells me you haven’t read or understood my post above. Historically, inefficient totalitarianism is self-defeating, as its oppressive acts create constant friction and sweep up innocent bystanders, creating resentment among the population. This eventually builds to an explosive release.

Technologically modernized totalitarianism may be able to implement large-scale oppressive policies without affecting most of the population. In fact the average person may see a net benefit! This would create a more stable society despite the significantly lower level of freedom and self-determination. We may be witnessing the development of this sort of system in China, for example. The average person benefits, but a segment of the population faces brutal oppression with no recourse and must simply submit. (Contrast with the US, where people who face repression can sometimes start over by going dark and moving across the country.)

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#338

Post by Avamander »

Etheryte wrote: post #329
Avamander wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're basically correct. But it's also a weird thing to refute in the first place? How do you hack a "passport" or your "social security card"? Artisanal elliptic curves from Russia and extremely deep corruption in most branches of the government? Most human-related problems around bootstrapping one's identity still remain the same and have to be solved. Electronic identity or not. (Also see the XKCD about the "wren…

Estonia's digital ID system is used for everything you could do with an ID and a signature in person. You can vote in elections, log in to your bank and send money, sign binding agreements, and so on. Hacking the system would mean you could, as a simple example, win elections, empty out retirement funds, and many other grim outcomes. This isn't about any one person, if you hacked the system, you could do that to the…

How is it truly different to any other ID system(s) though. What unique usable possibility is provided to this hypothetical attacker and how many are taken away?

The only thing it actually differs in is scale, like you described. But scale does not mean an inherent vulnerability that can be practically exploited.

If you're however able to make everyone ignore the noise of some massive attack then you already don't need to bother with any of it anyways.

If you can attack the foundation of the system, like elliptic cryptography then every bank and retirement fund on earth is in danger. Much bigger fish to fry.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#339

Post by agedclock »

xp84 wrote: post #332
agedclock wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. It is simply a score based on your ability to manage credit, it is scored differently based on the company making the assessment. In reality that means "have you paid off what you owe in the manner that was agreed" and does the person have any red flags e.g. County Court Judgements against their name or residence. There are people I know that manage it properly and those that don't. It has nothing to do w…

It doesn’t inherently have to do with wealth and class, however, all of these things are so tightly correlated that it loses barely any fidelity and just saves you a little bit of time to assume that someone with an 815 credit score is law-abiding, upper-middle or high social class, and has a medium to high net worth, and that somebody with a 550 credit score is at least one of the following: poor, criminal history,…

No having a high credit score has nothing do with your wealth or social class. I have worked in this industry briefly. It looks at your ability to manage credit, and whether you have any flags.

e.g. I had a 995 credit score on Experian back in the late 2000s. The highest was 999. I earned £18,000 at the time, and was in my mid-20s and didn't really own anything at the time. I did have a credit card at the time where I made the payments, and I lived at a household which had no debt, and I was on the electoral roll.

That is why when you are making larger purchases they do a "means test" e.g. see if you earn enough to pay a mortgage.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#340

Post by Avamander »

iamnothere wrote: post #337
Avamander wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Electronic ID provides the means to tie together multiple systems that must currently be matched manually, with frequent false positives/negatives. I don't think a totalitarian government cares much about false positives though. > It creates the means to quickly build a system that could “switch off” a person’s ability to function in society, and improves the ability of security services to pool data about individu…

This reply tells me you haven’t read or understood my post above. Historically, inefficient totalitarianism is self-defeating, as its oppressive acts create constant friction and sweep up innocent bystanders, creating resentment among the population. This eventually builds to an explosive release. Technologically modernized totalitarianism may be able to implement large-scale oppressive policies without affecting mos…

I read it and I think I understood it. But I disagree on the premise. I don't find that inefficiency is needed, protective or preventative.

I find it more likely that a totalitarian system that doesn't tolerate wrong-think will inherently start accumulating inefficiencies among other things. Which can then end up with the collapse of such a regime.

Building a technologically modernized authoritarian state might increase stability for a while, but not thinking is simply not competitive long-term. Unless you achieve total world domination, I guess.

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