Live data from Hacker News

Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

wsj.com

331–340 of 343 posts

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry you feel insulted. Lemme try to put it another way, because I am suggesting a different way to think about the idea of work, which /also/ was not the dominant way of thinking about things when I was a student. The notion that you go get credentials in order to get a job standing in a spot and doing a thing and get paid is... perhaps fine, for the trades. But, as I mentioned above, the beaten path is saturated,…

You note "the beaten path is saturated" - how do you reconcile that with two facts: 1. Fact 1: There is unusually high unemployment rate for new STEM graduates, including those with advanced degrees like MS and PhDs 2. Fact 2: Our politicians and business leaders are noting there is a "massive shortage of workers in STEM" and thus we need to import hundreds of thousands of foreign workers to meet the demand. How can…

These are perfectly consistent with what I'm saying. There is a market for labor, and if what you're selling is your credentials, you're in a flooded commodity market and will have a bad time.

Fact one says, yes, the beaten path is saturated. Fact two says that business leaders and politicians will happily look for the cheapest variety of the commodity available to them.

My point ultimately is that you'll have a better time if you don't act like a commodity.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

URSS, Mao's china, other communist regimes throughout the 20th century. Capitalism doesn't equalize, it tries to maximize.

They used equality as a rhetorical pretext for empowering a different narrow elite that the one than the revolutionary cadre replaced.

Weird though that every time the same thing ended up happening.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your CV indicates you graduated in 2006, so effectively into a different world. You should consider carefully how the world has changed for young people entering the workforce before dispensing advice, because they find themselves in a very different landscape to you and advice like "Plugging in and helping people solve their concrete problems is IMHO the best way to get started" is trite and frankly insulting.

Sorry you feel insulted. Lemme try to put it another way, because I am suggesting a different way to think about the idea of work, which /also/ was not the dominant way of thinking about things when I was a student. The notion that you go get credentials in order to get a job standing in a spot and doing a thing and get paid is... perhaps fine, for the trades. But, as I mentioned above, the beaten path is saturated,…

> Lemme try to put it another way, because I am suggesting a different way to think about the idea of work, which /also/ was not the dominant way of thinking about things when I was a student.

You don't need to restate your point. I understood and it's what's trite and insulting to new grads.

> Alternatively, you can think of yourself as a problem-solver for hire.

This isn't the alternative and hasn't been for a decade. It's absolutely mainstream thinking among students and new grads that the traditional career is dead and that they need to take alternative routes, one of the most common being to present themselves as "problem-solvers for hire", with personal brands, turning friends into networks, etc.

It's so common it's a trope, and of course the market of businesses who need problem-solvers for hire is absolutely saturated. It's a segment exploited by employers for cheap labour and terrible opportunities for progression as you're competing against so many people, many in LCOL areas.

So after their entire youth being told the same thing you're saying by podcasters, influencers, slightly older peers, etc and then arriving into a labour market which is absolutely barren, your advice is trite and it is insulting.

It's even worse than when challenged, you assume I must not get your profound advice and choose to reiterate it, instead of reflection on the possibility that the world and opportunities you enjoyed 20 years ago simply don't exist any more. Not that there aren't other opportunities.

> But, as I mentioned above, the beaten path is saturated, and you will find yourself in what is essentially a lottery system.

The irony of this comment.

> By plugging into some area you're interested in and solving people's concrete problems.

Yes, you and literally everyone else. It's almost ridiculous how out-of-touch this is.

> perhaps fine, for the trades.

As an aside, this is an absurdly arrogant comment.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have seen several experiments on forcing equality and millions died. I've not heard of this. Which experiments "forced equality" and then as a result caused millions of deaths? I'm aware of the experiment of capitalism failing in India to the tune of about 100 million dead, is that what you mean? With capitalism's attempts to equalize through meritocracy?

URSS, Mao's china, other communist regimes throughout the 20th century. Capitalism doesn't equalize, it tries to maximize.

USSR and Maoist PRC indeed took actions that killed millions, but so did capitalist India or mercantilist Britain or hegemonic America. I don't see a correlation between "forcing equality," which I'm not really even sure those regimes did (since Party members were clearly unequal in their power and quality of life), and the deaths. Just politics.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#335
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sincere question: Do you have thoughts as to how we can invest our $ if our goal is to support the "good economy" instead of attempting to ride the wave of the rich getting richer? I would like to be part of the solution instead of contributing to the problem, but it is challenging to identify companies in which to invest without supporting the status quo. I am not "rich," but wish I could better vote with what asset…

Basically, don't invest through investment companies. They'll chase the big profits because that's what they're paid to do. Even "green" or "sustainable" funds might invest in pharmaceutical companies that produce treatments instead of cures, or psuedo-science companies chasing net-energy loss concepts like clean coal or hydrogen, for example. Instead, invest in specific technologies and goals: - Low-cost solar panel…

After sleeping on it, I realized that what I wrote is based on my perceptions and projections. Putting one's disposable income towards ego-based goals and expecting a return is no different than what billionaires do. So the most altruistic thing to do instead is to put resources into goals that are determined democratically, without expectation of recognition or reward.

In other words, pay our taxes. Help the poor. Be of service to others. I'm not sure that it's possible to be the change we wish to see in the world and also make a profit.

I know that flies in the face of western culture and philosophy. So I would propose that the cognitive dissonance we experience when we try to integrate the views of people who see everything that's wrong with the world and the views of people who are grateful for what is, stems from imbalance. Sitting with opposing viewpoints makes us uncomfortable because we're confronted with inconvenient truths that implicate us. Then our avoidance of accountability creates the systems of control which trap us in the never-ending cycle of endless work with nothing to show for it.

Some examples of that might be the pageantry of the British royal family that papers over the class war happening under its watch, the performative displays of strength put on by China to curtail clandestine shell games carried out by the US, and even our idolization of celebrities who dine on the backs of the proletariat while the world burns.

The best way to break the spell is to get educated. If you think that Jordan Peterson, Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman make a lot of sense, then try Scott Galloway, Margaret Atwood and John Keynes. Loosely: the former build walls, the latter tear them down.

What I've learned in my own life is that wrestling with tough decisions and making the hard calls creates shadows in our psyche. Our choices form an identity which cements attachments that connect to densities that lower our spiritual vibration. So the wealthiest and most powerful people who have gone to the greatest lengths to achieve their goals are the ones most separated from their souls.

Meaning that if we want to help the less fortunate and reduce suffering, we need to work on healing our leaders. They don't want to be healed though. But maybe they can be reminded.

I had the utmost respect for Elon Musk when he was sleeping in his car to get real work done. But when he used his power and influence to dismantle the federal government through DOGE and cut aid that could result in millions of deaths worldwide ..not so much. When he arguably got the first reusable rocket into orbit with SpaceX, great! When he ignored the concerns of astronomers to fast track Starlink without bothering to give the satellites an anti-reflective coating, boo! It's not him I'm disappointed with, but his choices and lack of empathy when it counted.

The blind pursuit of efficiency creates injustice, and the refusal to rectify it creates intolerance. I think we've lost sight of what evil is because we've tied our identities to an immutable past which doesn't actually exist, because there's only now. I'm reminded of the quick and easy path in Star Wars, and when the Oracle in The Matrix said that we can never see past the choices we don't understand.

If we keep viewing the world through duality, with black and white thinking, good vs bad, us vs them, then we'll merely be custodians cleaning up the mistakes of the uber rich.

I think what I'm trying to say is that if we envision a better world and embody our dreams now, then we'll manifest a new timeline that escapes the will of people who would subjugate us.

What that means as far as where you place your energy is up to you. Imagine that!

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes are higher than capital gains taxes. This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country. We've chosen to reward those who move money around and trade capital more than we reward those who labor. And this at a time when, supposedly, the country is trying to increase its ability to build things. I thought this specific fact worth mentioning.

If we want to build things we need capital investment and a reward for risking capital.

We need labor more, and labor investment always involves substantially more risk for that person, than any capital investment ever carries.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#337

When I was in Kolkata two and a half years ago, I saw a young man wearing a jacket with a slogan on the back. In large letters, it said "The more you LEARN, the more you EARN." That would be so out of place in midwest USA, where cynicism is rampant and young people believe they have no control over their own outcomes. I wish I had taken a picture of that jacket.

> That would be so out of place in midwest USA, where cynicism is rampant

Well yeah, the Midwest USA is full of drastically under-employed individuals holding advanced degrees who still can't find any decent work, and yet still have to pay $2,000/month rental costs, while also paying back $100k to $200k+ student loans for all that "more learning" they did.

I think much of HN still thinks of "college grads" as entering a market similar to how they had it back in 2002 - 2010. But it's 2025, the market is far far less forgiving on the low end than it used to be.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Comments like this are why I stopped going on reddit.

You're in a meeting. A task comes up. Do you volunteer to do it? Taking on the task is additional work. It is also "sucking up". If you don't want to do something, and then make fun of the people that actually want to get things done and call them names, instead of, y'know, choosing to take on additional work, it's easy to believe that hard work doesn't get you anywhere, because you've chosen to divide things to do at work into "real" work, and "sucking up". There's not really a difference, but in one scenario you think you're better than the other person.

People like it when you do things for them. If you suck up all the work you can do at your job, in my version of corporate America I've experienced, you get promoted.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes are higher than capital gains taxes. This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country. We've chosen to reward those who move money around and trade capital more than we reward those who labor. And this at a time when, supposedly, the country is trying to increase its ability to build things. I thought this specific fact worth mentioning.

This is simply incorrect. To make the tax incidence on wages and capital gains equivalent, you must first deduct losses due to inflation and risk. For wages, inflation and risk round to zero. For long-term capital gains inflation and risk are large and often the majority of the "gain". Short-term capital gains are already taxed like wages. In the US, unlike some other developed countries, there is a very limited abil…

I don't understand how inflation and risk wouldn't/aren't priced in. You have $1000. You can: put it in your mattress, put it in 'safe' treasury bonds at inflation +a few percent, or yolo it in NVIDIA. Yes if bonds are returning less than inflation you don't buy them and that makes financing more expensive but it's not somehow unfair vs the other things you could do with capital.

Seems like return is roughly proportional to risk(1-tax)investment so changing tax should affect everything proportionally (barring cheating/avoiding the system in some way).

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply incorrect. To make the tax incidence on wages and capital gains equivalent, you must first deduct losses due to inflation and risk. For wages, inflation and risk round to zero. For long-term capital gains inflation and risk are large and often the majority of the "gain". Short-term capital gains are already taxed like wages. In the US, unlike some other developed countries, there is a very limited abil…

Imagine the risk of not being able to diversify your portfolio and putting all dependency on one income source. How do layoffs, broken health/major sickness, automation, local downturns get compensated by reducing future taxes? If I'm laid off for a year, then find a new job, I still pay the full tax amount on my income from that point forward, no 'loss deduction' from a year being unemployed. If I get sick with canc…

Seems like it'd be relatively easy to allow one to 'smooth' their income over multiple years. Imagine paying 100 income at 40% tax year 1 and 0 income year 2. A scheme where you could retcon things to be 50, 50, each at say 30% for a 10k refund (or at least credit) seems very doable.
Post reply on HN