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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#331

Post by beeflet »

tzury wrote: post #84

We need both options to coexist: 1. Open, hackable hardware for those who want full control and for driving innovation 2. Locked-down, managed devices for vulnerable users who benefit from protection This concept of "I should run any code on hardware I own" is completely wrong as a universal principle. Yes, we absolutely should be able to run any code we want on open hardware we own - that option must exist. But we s…

Do we need the second option to exist? The world is dangerous place. If you can't figure out a computer perhaps you're just unfit to participate in the modern economy.

The existence of locked-down hardware eliminates the feasibility of open hardware through network effects. That is what is happening now.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#333

Post by ghosty141 »

vbezhenar wrote: post #285
jacquesm wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google and Apple have more power than most nations. And that is what is wrong here. Even the smallest nation should be far more powerful than the largest corporation. But corporations are now more powerful than most nations, including some really big ones. So the only way to solve this is to for an umbrella for nations that offsets the power that these corporations have. The first thing you notice when you arrive a…

These are basics of capitalism. Company aims for profit. Bigger scale allows for better efficiency. So companies naturally grow big. The bigger they are, the easier for them to compete. Big companies have access to tremendous resources, so they can push laws by bribing law makers, advertising their agenda to the masses. There's no way around it, not without dismantling capitalism. Nations will serve to the corporatio…

> There's no way around it

Yes there is, the population passing laws to regulate this. The problem is though, that most people don't understand and don't care enough until its too late.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#334

Post by bee_rider »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

I wouldn’t be totally opposed to having some sort of totally locked down device that I was just used for banking. The bank could even sell them or give them away with the account (doesn’t need high performance).

Another though; if we were actually able to pass laws that helped people, one that I’d like to see would be: for a totally locked down proprietary device, everything done with it should be the legal liability of the vendor. If your bank account gets broken into via the device, you can’t audit what happened, you couldn’t have have broken it, so it ought to be their responsibility.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#335

Post by Rohansi »

altairprime wrote: post #303
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

There’s a scenario where this does work: you can install any operating system on the hardware you own, if you complete a “erase all content and settings” dire scary confirmation screen. - If you want to run something other than iPadOS or Google TV, go for it. (Smart TVs are just tablets with a don’t-touch screen.) - If you want to install spyware on someone’s phone, you can’t; the HSM keys held by their OS are lost w…

> My car already allows me to do this. My phone should too.

If you're referring to CarPlay and/or Android Auto you should know that it's not actually running on your car. It's basically RDPing your phone onto your car screen. You can already install RDP apps on your phone and connect to systems that provide more freedom, of course.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#336

Post by beeflet »

johncolanduoni wrote: post #237
fellowmartian wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a false dichotomy. Open hardware with open source software would be more protected simply by being more stress tested and vetted by more people. If you need even more protection you can employ zero-knowledge proofs and other trustless technologies. I have long been dreaming about some kind of hardware/software co-op creating non-enshittifying versions of thermostats, electric kettles, EV chargers, sol…

The issue here is rarely whether the security features themselves are circumventable. It’s that at some point this turns into trusting users not to give malware apps permissions (whether that’s a dialog, a system wide setting, adding a third-party app store, etc.). Almost no users can usefully evaluate whether a particular bit of digital trust is a good or bad idea, so people will constantly get scammed in practice.…

I think normal users will figure it out if you give them a couple of generations

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#337

Post by rahkiin »

spaqin wrote: post #283
josephg wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

Your parents are more likely to be a victim of a phone call scam than malware, even on PC. There is also no guarantee that malware will not slip through cracks of official stores or signatures. You can also choose to do your banking at the physical branch. We already had "best of both worlds", especially on mobile OSes - granular permissions per-app were quite good, and on Android until few years ago root was widely…

In the netherlands we do not have physical branches anymore. They died out. All banking started to go through browser. This was very sensitive to malware and viruses, so two-factor was added through phones. Then less and less people had PCs because phone provides enough. Now mobile apps for banking is the only way to do banking. Or it is required for MFA. Even if you’re calling with the bank it is used as MFA

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#338

Post by realusername »

josephg wrote: post #260
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

Well no, if your parents truly are tech illiterate, I would give them Ubuntu and not an iPhone.

With the iPhone they get the risk of answering to a scam call or scam sms and giving them the access of their bank account.

Ubuntu is almost bullet proof for beginners.

In fact, that's what I've done for my parents and I had to retire the computer and get another one because it's the hardware which became too old after 15 years of running Ubuntu without any problem.

Security for users isn't just about bootloader expoits.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#339

Post by liendolucas »

One of the biggest problems (if not the biggest) is that this desire is still a niche desire. If non-techie people would somehow be convinced that indeed hardware/software freedom is a basic right no matter the device we would be in a different position to pressure governments.

How can people be convinced about it is the hardest part. How do you convince people that have no idea about how technology and corporation interests work that the little device that you carry is bascially a brick at the mercy of its vendors?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#340

Post by 000ooo000 »

rblatz wrote: post #317
nradov wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could just not watch Netflix. Most of the content is kind of crap anyway, low effort filler. And the streaming services have trouble even licensing third-party content at all unless they have robust copy protection. That may be stupid because it drives more consumers to privacy but copyright holders are free to negotiate any licensing terms they want.

Netflix is right in its prime right now, K-Pop Demon Hunters is a smash hit and probably the biggest cultural thing going on right now, it has like 4 songs from it in the top 10. Wednesday is coming back this weekfor the end of season 2. Stranger Things is wrapping up in November,

Odd to hear for me. Netflix Australia has been in steep decline for years now. The only shows I recognise by title or actors in the poster are 15+ years old, or are adorned with 'Leaving Soon'. Everything of value has been poached by a competitor.
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