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US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

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Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#331

Post by codezero »

spangry wrote: post #296
cyphertruck wrote: post #209

This is like an old fashioned Civilization game trade. Taiwan gets a significant ownership in a blue chip US company, TSMC should then take %51 control over intel, and turn it around. The US gets a stronger position with China such that china attacking Taiwan would be like bombing Apple or Google. The USA will go to war over that. Only the willingness to go to war, stops aggressors. War is terrible and economic compe…

> The US gets a stronger position with China such that china attacking Taiwan would be like bombing Apple or Google. The USA will go to war over that. If TSMC has effectively transferred their technology to Intel, doesn't this remove a reason for the US to defend Taiwan?

having the tech doesn't build the actual fabs, and a two or three year halt in production or a transfer of that production from Taiwan to China while the US builds up its own production would be devastating for the US.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#332

Post by Waterluvian »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #315
Waterluvian wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m convinced that this is all what it looks like to live through the end of an empire (or whatever term you’d like). I think our lives are short enough that it can be easy to perceive something like America as “always was, always will be” and the rest is just trivia you learn in history class.

You wouldn’t have said that before Trump took office, so it seems to me that it’s one idiot causing all of the problems and not the kind of slow decline that happens over a long time span when an empire falls. What Trump is, is not compatible with who we are as a country and I’m confident he is going to bring about his own undoing when the economy really starts falling apart.

Actually I would argue that America has been slowly in decline for a long time now. And the inflection point is when there’s critical mass of that rot that someone like Trump can be elected. How embarrassing for all Americans that it got this bad, but even worse: it being this bad will greatly speed up the process.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#333

Post by SCUSKU »

dylan604 wrote: post #293
nosignono wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with stupidity. Stop painting people as idiots because they exist in one of the most information hostile environments in human history. This isn't some natural state that's unrecoverable. The people you describe have been given a highly addictive media environment tailor made to engender outrage and drive behavior. It shouldn't be a shock when most people cannot resist it. The first step to chang…

> most information hostile environments in human history Is it though? East Germany comes to mind as well as the rest of the Cold War countries behind the Iron Curtain. China seems to be pretty hostile as well. In the US, it is still much easier to find real information that counters the propaganda than it is in any of those other countries. There's no Great Firewall to bypass. You don't even need to do anything anon…

What you're describing is an Orwellian dystopia, where a boot forces you to think a certain way. We live in a Huxleyan dystopia where there is so much so much to distract you that you become submissive.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#334

Post by cookiengineer »

- have most wanted product and fab pipeline of the century

- be bullied by little Orange

- ???

- no profit

The US administration heavily underestimates how much every nation on the planet wants TSMC. This deal is so bad, just from a comparison point of view.

It's not like the EU, India, and other nations don't want chips. That's what the egocentric US administration doesn't seem to understand.

You can't bully nations into submission, at some point the winds will change.

Guess what, that already happened. The media in the EU is making a joke out of US politics on a daily basis since the start of this term.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#335

Post by tzs »

_hyn3 wrote: post #175
cherryteastain wrote: post #32

Tariffs kinda make sense when you have a deficit in a widely available item. Big trade deficit with Bangladesh? Sure you can buy cheap textiles from Thailand or Vietnam or something. Unfortunately this approach does not work when you lack a viable domestic alternative and you're up against a monopoly. What will the US do if TSMC does not blink? Not buy TSMC made chips? Obviously that is impossible, so the logical con…

What would TSMC do if they couldn't sell chips to the USA? It cuts both ways, like most trade negotiations.

If they could no longer sell in the USA than they would no longer have a reason to care about US restrictions on selling chips to other countries. China would be happy to buy many of the chips the US was no longer buying.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#336

Post by jm_redwood »

tw04 wrote: post #204
cherryteastain wrote: post #32

Tariffs kinda make sense when you have a deficit in a widely available item. Big trade deficit with Bangladesh? Sure you can buy cheap textiles from Thailand or Vietnam or something. Unfortunately this approach does not work when you lack a viable domestic alternative and you're up against a monopoly. What will the US do if TSMC does not blink? Not buy TSMC made chips? Obviously that is impossible, so the logical con…

>so the logical conclusion is that American consumers will end up paying the tariffs. That’s been the point all along… they are significantly raising taxes on the bottom 90% of Americans and most are too stupid to even understand it. Gotta pay for those tax cuts for the wealthy somehow.

it feels fair to call tariffs a VAT that goes away if the manufacturer produces things domestically which seems… reasonable? raise revenue and encourage domestic manufacturing.

yeah, it sucks that I can’t buy a JetKVM right now. otoh being dependent on (often) adversarial nations for everything we buy is also not ideal.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#337

Post by andrei_says_ »

cherryteastain wrote: post #32

Tariffs kinda make sense when you have a deficit in a widely available item. Big trade deficit with Bangladesh? Sure you can buy cheap textiles from Thailand or Vietnam or something. Unfortunately this approach does not work when you lack a viable domestic alternative and you're up against a monopoly. What will the US do if TSMC does not blink? Not buy TSMC made chips? Obviously that is impossible, so the logical con…

I much prefer “import taxes”.

These arm-twisting games are exhausting and expensive.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#338

Post by Jensson »

dylan604 wrote: post #293
nosignono wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with stupidity. Stop painting people as idiots because they exist in one of the most information hostile environments in human history. This isn't some natural state that's unrecoverable. The people you describe have been given a highly addictive media environment tailor made to engender outrage and drive behavior. It shouldn't be a shock when most people cannot resist it. The first step to chang…

> most information hostile environments in human history Is it though? East Germany comes to mind as well as the rest of the Cold War countries behind the Iron Curtain. China seems to be pretty hostile as well. In the US, it is still much easier to find real information that counters the propaganda than it is in any of those other countries. There's no Great Firewall to bypass. You don't even need to do anything anon…

> East Germany comes to mind as well as the rest of the Cold War countries behind the Iron Curtain

Psychology around ads and how to manipulate peoples thoughts were not nearly as well understood at the time. Large scale studies based on data collected of peoples behavior on computers has lead to dramatically better ability to manipulate and nudge people to do what you want.

The information environment was more oppressive there, but it was easier for people to have their own thoughts since the marketing was forced and blatant but way less manipulative and devious.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#339

Post by wat10000 »

spangry wrote: post #296
cyphertruck wrote: post #209

This is like an old fashioned Civilization game trade. Taiwan gets a significant ownership in a blue chip US company, TSMC should then take %51 control over intel, and turn it around. The US gets a stronger position with China such that china attacking Taiwan would be like bombing Apple or Google. The USA will go to war over that. Only the willingness to go to war, stops aggressors. War is terrible and economic compe…

> The US gets a stronger position with China such that china attacking Taiwan would be like bombing Apple or Google. The USA will go to war over that. If TSMC has effectively transferred their technology to Intel, doesn't this remove a reason for the US to defend Taiwan?

The US has been defending Taiwan since before integrated circuits were invented. Supporting an ally and a democracy in a critical location is the only reason that matters.

That doesn’t matter much to this administration, but it’s not like they’re going to care about TSMC either.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#340

Post by m-s-y »

nosignono wrote: post #207
tw04 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so the logical conclusion is that American consumers will end up paying the tariffs. That’s been the point all along… they are significantly raising taxes on the bottom 90% of Americans and most are too stupid to even understand it. Gotta pay for those tax cuts for the wealthy somehow.

It has nothing to do with stupidity. Stop painting people as idiots because they exist in one of the most information hostile environments in human history. This isn't some natural state that's unrecoverable. The people you describe have been given a highly addictive media environment tailor made to engender outrage and drive behavior. It shouldn't be a shock when most people cannot resist it. The first step to chang…

No, they are idiots. Not at media consumption, but idiots at life.

There are certain life skills that can be considered “smart” like revisiting your established opinions when presented with new information, or knowing that encountering a new piece of information from a single source doesn’t carry the weight of encountering it in dozens of places, or that making a mistake doesn’t guarantee that your existence is doomed but been presented with a learning experience.

The “stupid” folks refuse to take the simplest steps to better themselves. They refuse to self-evaluate honestly. That’s the root cause. This stupidness results in them being duped and misinformed.

Therefore, when one encounters an uninformed and duped person, it’s not out of line to consider that person “stupid”.

So when people like OP say that people are stupid, it’s not a dig via victim blaming. It’s a judgement that they’re clearly being stupid, that their poor life skills need work because they ended up misinformed.

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