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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#331

Post by nabla9 »

ragazzina wrote: post #326
nabla9 wrote: post #307

This is a good example of social hysteria. 1. The P320 had a real issue with firing when dropped. Although it had passed all drop tests, when dropped at a 25-degree angle onto the rear sight, the weight of the trigger was enough to fire the gun. There is a voluntary fix available for older weapons, but no recall has seen necessary. Now, we have many videos and widespread discussion about this. Millions of people and…

>1. The P320 had a real issue with dropping when fired. Did you mean firing when dropped?

Yes :)

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#332

Post by sneak »

esseph wrote: post #139
tshaddox wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

There's been debate over this for decades that has run its course. The consensus is carry chambered or don't carry.

There is not consensus.

I appendix carry; I’m not carrying chambered, period. My remaining options are to not carry, or carry in condition 3.

I think that’s a simple decision.

If I ever felt the legitimate need to daily carry in condition 0/1, I would move. Cities definitely, provinces generally, nations if necessary. Life’s too short. I’m not in the special forces.

I don’t have to be ready for every conceivable scenario; just most of them. And that’s more than enough.

If history is any guide, now’s the time when someone tells me that not wanting a loaded and cocked .45 pointed directly at my right testicle for 16 hours every single day means that I have a cheap holster or haven’t trained enough or don’t have the right pistol or something. (I’m fairly certain that none of these are true.)

PS: A much more likely scenario than a knife guy charging from 20 feet is a routine encounter with an LEO who wishes to temporarily disarm me during a traffic or Terry stop. I absolutely do not trust some dipshit cop to remove a condition 0/1 pistol from my waistband without fucking it up, which would likely happen right around the time it is pointed at my femoral artery, or worse. Fuck that noise.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#333

Post by OrvalWintermute »

koolba wrote: post #148
djoldman wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has never touched a firearm, I'm curious: what are you doing firing thousands of rounds? Is it target practice?

A thousand rounds is not that much. A standard box has 50 rounds, if you fire four boxes in a weekend, you can easily go through a thousand rounds over a month. Now at $.25-.$30 / round, this does add up to an expensive hobby.

It really depends on the weapon / type.

I’d estimate I have shot over 100K rounds of 7.62 thanks to a good amount of time as an M60/M240 Gunner

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#334

Post by lazide »

nabla9 wrote: post #327
lazide wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is a very real manufacturing and design issue that SIG insists doesn’t exist, despite numerous well documented cases. See [ https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7RXrneHlzfjrewMFIeeyc-nel3... ] for one exceptionally well documented case. In this situation, the FBI was able to duplicate the ‘spontaneous firing of a chambered round’ by pressing down slightly on the slide with nothing else going on. SIG needs to ge…

There are no numerous well documented cases. You link to one well documented case that was document I was referring to. It does not say what you said. They were not able to duplicate the firing the way you think BRF was able to replicate firing in holster with keys in hand. --- From the document: "The MSP motor officer had objects in his hands at the time of the event, including keys." then "BRF was successful in usi…

“On July 31, 2024, a MSP motor officer was standing in a squad area with other members when his department issued Sig Sauer M182 fired uncommanded. The firearm was reportedly secured in the department issued Alien Gear Rapid Force Level 3 holster at the time of firing. According to the MSP motor officer’s statement and the statements of others present, at no time was the trigger pressed intentionally or inadvertently3 . The MSP motor officer had objects in his hands at the time of the event, including keys. The subject firearm, while in the holster, was removed from the member’s leg and placed in an evidence bag pending further evaluation.”

Do you work for SIG or something?

Of course someone could reach into the holster with keys and hit the trigger, but there is no conceivable way it could be that in this situation. And this isn’t the only time - I’ve seen several videos of Sig P320’s doing this that are completely unrelated to this situation.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#335

Post by jackmottatx »

myrmidon wrote: post #328
franktankbank wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy that Sig Sauer is pushing back on this as lies then. (per featured article)

I don't think that is crazy at all, our whole system incentivizes corporate behavior exactly like this. From your tone I assume that you would expect Sig to come forward, analyze, discuss and hopefully solve these problems as soon as possible. But that would be utterly stupid from their point of view. Public opinion cares very little about the details-- anytime you get associated with issues like this is simply bad f…

[dead]

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#336

Post by nabla9 »

lazide wrote: post #334
nabla9 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no numerous well documented cases. You link to one well documented case that was document I was referring to. It does not say what you said. They were not able to duplicate the firing the way you think BRF was able to replicate firing in holster with keys in hand. --- From the document: "The MSP motor officer had objects in his hands at the time of the event, including keys." then "BRF was successful in usi…

“On July 31, 2024, a MSP motor officer was standing in a squad area with other members when his department issued Sig Sauer M182 fired uncommanded. The firearm was reportedly secured in the department issued Alien Gear Rapid Force Level 3 holster at the time of firing. According to the MSP motor officer’s statement and the statements of others present, at no time was the trigger pressed intentionally or inadvertently…

I can read what you wrote. You said that the evaluation duplicate something. Only thing they duplicate was the possibility of key firing. You must be referring to that.

They were not able to duplicate physical malfunction.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#337

Post by bayindirh »

alecco wrote: post #295
spl757 wrote: post #133

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other cla…

> I have not had the self-recall fix done Why? Also, isn't that only an issue in early P320s? (at least according to Sig) > and I'll never chamber a round in it again Isn't this good enough for most uses? Heck, a long time ago I was trained to only chamber after unholstering AND entering a situation requiring quick response. The extra round not being worth the risk. 17 instead of 17+1 for the 9mm P320, right? Honestl…

From that angle, we can also argue that losing a door or a plane or two during flights is not a big issue for Boeing and people in general, because it's the only problem known with these planes, and it happens pretty rarely, no?

Heck, even if we believe Boeing, it's the pilots' problem who are not retrained for the new plane which doesn't need training.

Honestly, also this Boeing thing smells like an overblown hysteria campaign to pump American planes.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#338

Post by joyeuse6701 »

alecco wrote: post #295
spl757 wrote: post #133

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other cla…

> I have not had the self-recall fix done Why? Also, isn't that only an issue in early P320s? (at least according to Sig) > and I'll never chamber a round in it again Isn't this good enough for most uses? Heck, a long time ago I was trained to only chamber after unholstering AND entering a situation requiring quick response. The extra round not being worth the risk. 17 instead of 17+1 for the 9mm P320, right? Honestl…

Too many examples of the discharge happening in YouTube and Sig gaslighting the public about it and blaming liberals made it even worse. The gun had a recall after fighting the public and then there were still problems. I hear the issue may be tolerance differences between part versions that can lead to the safety failures when mixed together.

The brand damage has been significant, but for the most part isolated to this pistol. Now, if another Sig model has a similar issue in the future and a similar response comes from Sig, the loss in trust will be immense and potentially unrecoverable.

As far as not keeping a round in the chamber, yeah, some people still do that, though that method has fallen into disfavor amongst the CCW types. But even when not ready to fire, there is a lot of time when that pistol could be loaded and go off, I.E. holding the pistol at low ready. Pistol on the bench facing down range as you check something or take a pause, unloading and reloading etc.

Pistols are already incredibly easy to accidentally hurt oneself and others that adding in this variable is just intolerable for most I think.

The gun community wants that gun to work reliably, that means it must fire when intended to fire, and only then.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#339

Post by giantg2 »

deelowe wrote: post #277
giantg2 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The P320 is apparently a rare case of this." Not that rare. Gen 1 and 2 Glocks had slam fires (that's right, "Safe Action" Glocks... the irony). The XDS had doubles or slam fires. I'm sure there were others, and now the P320.

Then gen2 glock is old enough to be considered one the original striker fired pistols. The parent is right. There's no reason to be making these kinds of mistakes these days. They industry has been churning out millions of safe striker fire personal carry firearms for decades now.

There shouldn't be a reason for these mistakes, but they keep happening. Do a little digging and you'll see. I've already mentioned the XDS and we all know the P320. The FNS had a similar issue too. I'm sure there are more if we dig. So while there are millions of safe striker fired guns, it appears there are also millions of unsafe ones in the past decade or so.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#340

Post by hollywood_court »

unethical_ban wrote: post #89
hollywood_court wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It seems that Sig really dropped the ball with the P320. My top 3 most used hand guns are the CZ P-10 F, the Sig P365, and the Sig P322. I honestly never thought I'd ever buy a modern handgun unless it was made by Sig. Until I tried the CZ. The P-10 F is my favorite full sized striker fired pistol. And that's coming from a guy that owns 30+ Sig pistols.

Yeah, just from a reputational standpoint I'm not sure I ever want to buy a Sig unless it's used. Too many other good brands to financially support. I've been eyeing a Canik or Walther, I want a premium trigger. The CZs are reliable weapons, but their trigger feels "gritty" to me. My Sig SP2022 is my favorite trigger of the guns I own.

I had the opposite experience with the P-10 F. Granted it's the only CZ pistol I own. But it's also the only modern pistol I own that was ready to go right out of the box without any kind of needed improvements or modifications.
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