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Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

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Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#331

Post by projectazorian »

impendia wrote: post #200
timr wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree that it's a better way to travel if you can do it, but most people can't [1]. That said, even for short-term tourists, Japan used to be kind of a miracle in terms of the quality and service you would get for the money. I know it sounds like hipster whining, but that time is in the past. [1] My snobby hot-take is that if you can't travel this way you shouldn't do recreational international travel at all,…

I used to live in Japan in 1999-2001, and I was just there again for a month this summer. Anyway, I disagree with you: Japan is still a miracle in terms of the quality and service you get for the money. I saw this many times over. Perhaps not in Kyoto, or in the most touristed areas of Tokyo. Or in whatever random place got featured in some anime, or whatnot. The article mentions Yamaguchi, Toyama, Morioka, etc., and…

> But even in Kyoto, go off the beaten path a little, and you will find much to delight you!

Extremely true. I just got back from Japan and I was very pleased by how little effort it took to get off the tourist trail, even in Kyoto. Of course some popular attractions are still worth seeing and for those, visiting around opening is usually enough to avoid the worst of the crowds. (If you're flying in from the US there's a good chance jet lag has you up at 5am anyway, so this is an effective strategy even for non-morning people.)

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#332

Post by Aloisius »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #172
deaddodo wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Private businesses have broad rights to refuse individual customers without stating a reason. They don't have to state a reason. The entire foundation of the common law system is to have a court decide intent; not be technically bound by your words. It would only take showing a continued behavior of denying people in a discriminatory manner (e.g. 10% of your visitors are foreigners, but 95% of the people barred ent…

> They don't have to state a reason. The entire foundation of the common law system is to have a court decide intent; not be technically bound by your words. Yes, I agree. It becomes more difficult to infer intent without a stated reason. Practically speaking, I think most civil rights lawsuits that are decided in the plaintiff’s favor are very, very explicit cases of discrimination. Someone was called a slur, someon…

Individuals don't have to file a lawsuit for discrimination by public accommodations nor do they need to stick around for a trial.

All one does is file a complaint with the Justice department (or a local states'). The Justice department is who investigates and sues.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#333

Post by Barrin92 »

returningfory2 wrote: post #278
deaddodo wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rule applies to most confucian/communal East Asian societies with individuals from the West. People aren't idiots, they realize cultures differ, so they're willing to give some slack; especially, with a culture they're somewhat familiar with through media (the US, for instance). With Japan and Korea (especially the latter) towards Americans, there's also a soft-unspoken rule (that sort of goes both ways) due to…

I struggle to believe this. How can the average Korean tell the difference between a white American and a white Brit?

language/accent obviously, dress, manners and also English people in particular look distinct physically given that most white Americans are more likely to have Northwestern European ancestry. The stereotypical "American white guy" would have an easier time on Swedish or German TV than joining the cast of Peaky Blinders

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#334

Post by tastyface »

missedthecue wrote: post #276
tayo42 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is building modern day concentration camps for immigrants. Maybe the country isnt actively killing the out groups right now like a handful of other countries but I'd say the racism is extreme and up there.

But the immigrants aren't racial or ethnic outgroups per se. Many are incidentally Latino, yes, but so is the current Secretary of State.

They certainly use language suggesting that all Latinos are illegal: https://medium.com/the-antagonist-magazine/debunking-the-65-...

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#335

Post by projectazorian »

gherkinnn wrote: post #293
timr wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the Ramen place (I can't believe that they wouldn't take cash?), but I agree with you that more places are doing this kind of "two markets" stuff -- it's even becoming official, in that now there's officially sanctioned "foreigner pricing" for certain temples, shrines, and parks. There's also Google Maps and Yelp vs. Japan's local version (pretty much any review on the former two are useless, and h…

> There's also Google Maps and Yelp vs. Japan's local version (pretty much any review on the former two are useless, and hopelessly biased by clueless tourists). I do not understand why one would even look at tourist reviews for "authentic Japanese jalapeños" or whatever on Gmaps. But people do so what do I know.

Interestingly, Apple Maps is integrated with Tabelog. So using Apple Maps to search for restaurants in Japan can be an effective strategy.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#336

Post by timr »

jansan wrote: post #302
timr wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How long ago was that? It was certainly true in fairly large portions of the world, but there are plenty of places where, for as long as I can remember, you could pretty much expect to be scammed regularly. To be clear: "scamming" is still thankfully uncommon in Japan. Getting ripped off in the tourist-trap way is the new development. I don't know when it started exactly, but I lived there around a decade ago and i…

There were catch bars in the 90s, and Roppongi has been full of assholes as long as I can remember (anyone remember Tokyo Gas Panic?). I have not been to Japan for more than ten years so I do not know how bad it is, but my point is that even in the good old days you could get ripped off as a gullible foreigner (usually by other foreigners).

Yes, agreed. I’m not talking about places like Roppongi or the sketchier parts of Shinjuku and Shibuya, Dotonbori, Umeda, etc., which have always been red light districts.

I’m talking about a more pedestrian type of ripoff, which is simply to overcharge and underdeliver - think of $40 for tough meat, labeled “Kobe beef”, and you’ll get the idea. It’s always been around, but far more prevalent now.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#337

Post by toephu2 »

cedws wrote: post #163
anon-3988 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But deep down I know that I don't belong here, and that Japan would prefer to be a homogenous society without expats like me. And I hold no hard feelings toward them for that. I think this is an important point that I am struggling to articulate. I actually like the fact that they "prefer to do things their way". When I was traveling there, it is clear that I stand out from my behavior. We might share the same skin…

My home country, the UK, has already been through this cultural erosion which is why I respect Japan's right to defend its own. London in particular has become a place for everybody and at the same time for nobody. It's a city of people of different values and wavelengths with very little shared strata compared with Tokyo.

Yup, this happens to any melting pot city (Paris, New York, LA, San Francisco, etc). The downside of multiculturalism is these places become low-trust societies.

Do you dare leave your bike outside unlocked in these cities?

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#338

Post by the_af »

gtowey wrote: post #245
timr wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the Ramen place (I can't believe that they wouldn't take cash?), but I agree with you that more places are doing this kind of "two markets" stuff -- it's even becoming official, in that now there's officially sanctioned "foreigner pricing" for certain temples, shrines, and parks. There's also Google Maps and Yelp vs. Japan's local version (pretty much any review on the former two are useless, and h…

I think it's worse than that. I'm starting to think that there may not really be an ethical way to be a tourist in a foreign country. Especially coming from a high cost of living area to a lower one. Just being there puts you in economic competition with the locals. You can spend more on everything than everyone else and that raises their costs too. Especially housing and food. Those fancy resorts take all the prime…

Ok, so there's no ethical way of doing tourism. So what's the alternative?

Stay at home? Do not take vacations? Never learn anything about the outside world that's not mediated by books or the internet?

Because I can tell you not even your own country (whatever that is) is spared from this. You cannot travel within your country without causing this, either.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#339

Post by decimalenough »

monetus wrote: post #290
amluto wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really miss the days when it was possible to be welcomed pretty much anywhere as a foreigner and have almost universal expectations of high quality, scam-free experiences How long ago was that? It was certainly true in fairly large portions of the world, but there are plenty of places where, for as long as I can remember, you could pretty much expect to be scammed regularly. In many cases those scams would be for…

It can be pretty shocking seeing all the shell games immediately underneath the Eiffel tower, to your point.

Post Olympics, the Eiffel Tower is now surrounded by a tall fence and requires passing through airport style security to get in. Bit of a hassle, but no shell games in sight.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#340

Post by 1-more »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #307
returningfory2 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there’s a zero sum fallacy in play here. For example you say “Those fancy resorts take all the prime real estate” but many resort towns in Mexico like Cancun were literally invented out of thin air for international tourism. The alternative reality is not “Cancun for the locals”; the alternative reality is no Cancun. In general we have the ability to expand the amount of available housing/hotels/etc. to meet…

Even sticking with Japan, Kyoto was basically saved by international tourism. An American tourist ended up ended up intervening 20 years after his visit when he saw Kyoto at the top of America's list of cities to use nuclear weapons on. Although I don't think the commonly repeated story that Stinson visited on his honeymoon is true, he had gotten married in the previous century

more details on the Honeymoon myth in this https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2023/07/24/henry-stimson-did...
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