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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

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Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#331

Post by detaro »

inkyoto wrote: post #315
socalgal2 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are other options out there. This isn't about the a consumer's right to buy a different phone. It's about a business's right to do business with customers without Apple in the middle. And it's specifically about Apple's monopoly power over those businesses. No government is going to accept that some company, Apple, gets that kind of control.

Let's consider cars (or vehicles in general) as another mainstream example of completely vertically integrated products which comprise hardware and – now – software. Toyota Motor Corp., Volkswagen Group (multiple brands), Hyundai Motor Group, GM and Stellantis N.V. are the top 5 largest automakers in the world whose annual output is comparable with that of largest smartphone makers, including Apple (with the adjustme…

At least some of your points are not allowed in the EU. Manufacturers have to provide the manuals on what constitutes a "proper" service or inspection to independent service places and have to accept their work in their warranty requirements.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#332

Post by matkoniecz »

FredPret wrote: post #30
dwedge wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their ecosystem is your phone. As long as you cannot install anything on your phone without going through their app store, it's a monopoly

- You don't need to have an iPhone - You agree to the letter of the ToS when you click "I Agree" when you set up the iPhone, - You also already agree to the spirit of the App Store when you buy it. After all, it's not some big secret - You can get by with webapps for the most part anyway - You can buy an Android, a flip phone, or pull a power move and have no phone Buying an iPhone and then demanding that it has to w…

> - You agree to the letter of the ToS when you click "I Agree" when you set up the iPhone,

I reject that argument.

For start ToS may have unenforceable claims (if someone puts that I agree to give all things I own to them into ToS it has zero effect).

Also, at this point I dispute that ToS clickery should be treated as agreeing to them. "I have read and agree with ToS" is a blatant lie in at least in the first half.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#333

Post by matkoniecz »

FredPret wrote: post #185
palata wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that app developers can't ignore iOS because the market is too big. Therefore Apple can do whatever they want and developer have to accept their condition. As a developer, there is no choice. Apple should not be able to abuse their dominant position.

The problem with this is in the very definition of what it means to be an "app" developer. You say "app" and most people immediately understand you mean the iPhone or Android kind, with all that entails. These companies have been dominating the landscape for decades now, most likely for longer than most app developers have been app developers. As a developer, there's definitely a choice: don't make an iPhone app; don…

> From this point of view, you don't have a right to demand that the walled garden have free entrance.

there are other points of view, including one that monopolies should be illegal

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#334

Post by zarzavat »

adastra22 wrote: post #310
fc417fc802 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IE6 was stagnant and not standards compliant. Safari at least complies with standards. Chrome is the polar opposite of IE6. Turns out it doesn't really matter what you do, if one party controls too much of any market it's bad news for end users one way or another.

That’s not exactly accurate as standards for new web technologies didn’t exist back when IE6 was dominant. The WHATWG had to be founded and the standards made post facto before IE6 was non-compliant.

Different eras. The "IE6" here is the IE6 in 2009 that stubbornly refused to die.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#335

Post by globular-toast »

_benton wrote: post #66
whstl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? In their own machines they can do whatever they want. Once they sell it to you, not anymore.

Are you legally prevented from controlling your device in any way you wish after purchase? I think people are conflating ease of modification from legally being able to do so. If it's legal, then Apple retains no control over the device.

Are sick people legally prevented from becoming healthy again? Are homeless people legally prevented from having a home? Are starving people legally prevented from eating?

I'm sick of people writing off entire classes of problems because "well, it's not illegal". The law doesn't matter until you're actually in court. What matters is practicalities. There are many rights that are impractical to use and there are many laws that are unenforced. Some problems could be solved by law, others probably not. The law is a solution, not a problem. Focus on problems, not solutions.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#336

Post by globular-toast »

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

No, people should not be able to control other people.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#337

Post by detaro »

sadeshmukh wrote: post #323
StrandedKitty wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the reason is that the number of Apple users is an order of magnitude higher? Plus, they control both hardware and software. Apple is making very consumer-oriented products, and this comes with it's own downside of having to handle billions of users.

Steam has a near total monopoly on PC gaming and has an equivalent cut.

You are not required to use Steam to buy games on any device (even on the Steam Deck it's trivial to install games from other sources). It has big market power because gamers actually like it and actively choose it over alternatives (often even those that come pre-installed with the platform, the Windows store and the XBox app). It does not prevent devs from selling their games on multiple stores. It's dominant position for sure has market effects, but its a lot harder to argue it has the position for any nefarious or abusive reasons. (Although there are some lawsuits ongoing claiming that they did threaten devs over pricing, if those succeed it might change things)

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#338

Post by cess11 »

8fingerlouie wrote: post #190
wavemode wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Explain stifle, or more specifically how Apple is doing that ? I wrote a comment about that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44426128#44427725 > You may not like the price associated with it, which is what most of these complaints are about, the fact that Apple scoops up 30% of recurring subscriptions created through the App Store as well. People tend to forget that running your own infrastructure is also…

> Then don't do it. Who exactly is forcing you to? The problem is, when the option exists it opens up an attack vector that I need to defend against, as it will surely be exploited by malware at some point, downloading an app when you visit some scam site, and boom you're now infected. > Simply having a link in my app to a page where someone pays through Stripe instead of through Apple Payments, But it hardly stifles…

iOS has functionality for remote control that is commonly used for security and group policies in large organisations. This is a more likely threat vector, as is rogue state affiliated actors like the infamous israeli malware purveyors.

In any case, generally the threat against most people is fraud, not some technical minutiae.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#339

Post by goku12 »

Nursie wrote: post #326
lenkite wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to pay ~30% extra for your preferred customer experience. The rest of us can leverage discounted pricing. Customer Choice for the win! Also, thinking that all businesses will lock one in using friction and timewasting is not a rational argument. There are a lot of honest businesses there forced to pay the Apple Mafia's tax.

> You are free to pay ~30% extra for your preferred customer experience. The rest of us can leverage discounted pricing. Customer Choice for the win! People say this stuff, but recently I re-examined my subscription to a multi-platform VPN service through the App store and found that they priced it cheaper than getting the same package through their website or through their windows client. No idea why.

Is that the norm or just an outlier?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#340

Post by archagon »

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

Any argument in this vein must also apply to the Mac. The hardware is mostly the same. The OS is mostly the same. The native apps and services are identical, as is the security story. So why should the Mac not be locked down if the iPhone is? Put another way, what prevents Apple from using the exact same reasoning to lock down my Mac in the future, perhaps under pressure from authoritarian governments? After all, the technology (notarization) is already in place and is actively being abused for iOS app review in the EU.
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