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Exactly. Clear astroturfing to hide war crimes is not going unnoticed anymore.
IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
331–340 of 1001 posts
Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
#332[flagged]
Have you seen the Israeli hostage families protest in Israel? They get heckled and threatened by the hardliners in the general public and government who want the war continue to and those hardliners essentially want the hostages as an excuse for war. The democracy in Israel has elected a government that wants to continue to acquire land in Gaza and the West Bank in preference over negotiating for return of the hostages. There are multiple video and text reporting on this issue.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-847290
There are also hardline hostage families that want to continue the war over negotiating.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-hamas-hostages-ceasef...
It's complicated and not as simple as your black and white assessment - that people are for either returning the hostages or not returning the hostages and those same opinions are in sync with ending the war/continuing the war with the same priority.
Hamas having hostages serves both Hamas and the hard right wing's long term goals in Israel, and the hard right wing in Israel holds all the power in Israel and Hamas holds the power in Gaza.
Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm Swedish. Since I was a child, for decades, I was taught and never questioned the idea that Germany had learnt from their history, in the most admirable way. That it was really ingrained into the German culture to never let anything like the holocaust happen again. That the education system there was very good in really making people understand why it happened, what went wrong, and how to make sure there would be…
I would not extrapolate from the discourse with one German to a general statement of a heterogeneous population of ~80M people. There are many different opinions and positions in Germany - like in every country in the world. Please keep that in mind. Germany has indeed still have a ‘vaccination’. How well it works, and whether it is not exploited by politics, is another matter. Lastly, the conflict in the Middle East…
No, there is nothing “complex” about Gaza - neither before nor after Oct 7.
The late Michael Brooks shared a small thought experiment that might help elucidate this: https://youtu.be/7ebPj_FqM5Q
Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
#334[flagged]
“Fire at unarmed crowds” and “fire towards crowds” is the same thing, what sort of semantic ping pong is this? Also propaganda =/= bad. All media is propaganda, in some languages the word “propaganda” has the same semantic meaning as the English word “advertisement”. This comment is war crime apologia.
There is a difference between shooting people and firing warning shots.
Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
#335[flagged]
This bit is also important in my opinion:
> Once again, we are faced with the suggestion that not only are the IDF murderous maniacs, but they also have the worst aim on the planet. The monstrous IDF are such terrible shots that they fire heavy machine guns, mortars, and grenade launchers at crowds of tens of thousands, yet manage to wound no more than 1 to 5 Gazans at a time.
The following quote seems consistent with much of the journalism I’ve read about the conflict for years. It makes you become a bit cynical of the news outlets when you repeatedly see things like this https://x.com/washingtonpost/status/1929961283593367559 Peoples first impressions often last the longest.
> Later, Haaretz quotes an officer saying the intent behind the live fire was crowd control, not carnage. However, it buries this clarification so deeply that it becomes effectively irrelevant. The reader has already been presented with the moral horror headline, and that’s what will endure.
> The author admits they don’t know who is shooting at civilians near these aid distribution centres. Still, rather than consider the possibility that, for example, Hamas might be involved, the article shifts with the loaded line:
Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
In theory, we want to end it through the Two-State Solution (though even what this means is vague - certainty not the borders of 1967 that Palestinians and Arabs are demanding) But yeah, in practice, we seem to want it to end with full Israeli dominance, and the Palestinians either emigrating to Egypt and Jordan or vanishing into thin air, I suppose.
I'd like better news coverage of that: What exactly ARE the goals / demands of every side. Both what they say in public, and what's generally accepted as the rational real goals each side requests / demands / etc via peace talks as well as through violence. The breakdown could even focus on factions within the nebulous term of 'sides'. An average citizen is likely to have looser criteria than a government / terrorist…
The problem with enunciating real positions to domestic audiences are that the extremists on both sides will literally murder anyone who compromises.
Let's not forget Israel's domestic orthodox/right-wing Jewish terrorism and Yitzhak Rabin's assassination.
Ergo, there's even more incentive for leaders to continually espouse positions they know will never happen, but which play well at home.
As a violence in poli sci professor of mine once quipped, this is a 'the only solution is killing the grandmothers' conflict. Because generational narratives of victimization are so ingrained in large parts of both societies that there is no room for compromise.
Silence extremist voices forcefully, wait a generation, and then there might be a path to peace. :(
Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Is there a way for IDF to fight Hamas without "inflict war crimes, or terrorism on civilians" though? How would that work in practical terms?
I'm reminded of an episode of Saga of Tanya the Evil where a 'guerilla military unit' had 'taken over a captured city'. The progag's military unit had to go 'clear the city'. Their military commanders had given clear orders that all hostile forces were enemy soldiers who must be killed. They started by issuing a demand to release the hostages and allow them to exit the war zone. One of the few who didn't want to fight was shot while trying to escape. From that point it predictably went in a very bad direction.
As far as I'm aware, the citizens of Israel are free to leave that country* (free to enter another country is another issue, but they're also free to move about). It's terrorism and illegal military action to knowingly fire upon civilians. I agree with that for all sides of a conflict. The issue with the other side(s) in this conflict is that they do not present as a clearly identified military force. IMO the most proper solution is the same as evaporatively purifying water. Issue sufficient (<< heavy lifting here) warnings for civilians to leave an area, with an area for them to move to. Then any who remain in the military action area are combatants. Probably just like in the anime episode that showcases this circumstance. (war is hell, that's one of the hells.)
Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
#338This comment thread is the most civilised online discussion I have seen in a long while about this particular topic, despite people coming from diverse backgrounds and disagreeing. In this sense, hackernews gives me hope that online culture is not lost yet.
It's because realistically hn is an oasis of educated people that has been overlooked by astroturfers and foreign interests (very strongly including the government in this piece), and hasn't expanded its core demographic for profit. This is what the rest of the internet would be like without manipulation. Imagine how much better things would be
I was encouraged by yours and parents posts to look at some of the comments but I think I just got duped into wasting time with bots that are in fact astroturfing!
Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
#339How credible is the reporting in in Haaretz? I am normally fairly well accustomed to the reliability and credibility of newspapers, but I have never read this newspaper.
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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites
#340If we look at history, do the oppressed always become oppressors?
Mostly, yes. Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire, then became conquerors of the world. Russians were oppressed by the Mongols, then became conquerors of Eurasia. Communists were oppressed by Tsarists, then became ruthless oppressors themselves. Protestants were oppressed in Europe, so they set sail to America and became oppressors of the natives.
Communists were absolutely not oppressed by Tsarists.