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Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

thecity.nyc

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Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#331

Post by lmm »

immibis wrote: post #295
lmm wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think the “national electorate” should have any say in California state laws? Is it just a basic lack of understanding civics, or do you think states, cities and local communities should be abolished because people in Alabama should actually be in charge of people in Sacramento? Immigration law isn't California state law, it's federal law, duly passed (and frankly any other approach would be crazy, unles…

The legislature writes unconstitutional laws all the time.

Sorry, misspoke, I meant the judiciary would strike it down.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#332

Post by lmm »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #312
lmm wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most democratic countries don't have decades of regular law enforcement refusing to enforce democratically agreed immigration law, which is what has made this defensible.

> made this defensible That's like saying vigilantism is defensible. I don't care if these "officers" (in quotes as we don't know who they are) are doing God's work, if they are 1) refusing to show proof that they are indeed officers and 2) have legal warrants for an arrest, and 3) provide those they arrest with due process, then they are acting outside the law

> That's like saying vigilantism is defensible.

When traditional law enforcement fails to the point that the rule of law completely breaks down, vigilantism becomes defensible.

> I don't care if these "officers" (in quotes as we don't know who they are) are doing God's work, if they are 1) refusing to show proof that they are indeed officers and 2) have legal warrants for an arrest, and 3) provide those they arrest with due process, then they are acting outside the law

ICE has the legal authority to arrest without warrants in many cases. I don't like it, but this is the flipsides of decades of insisting that illegal immigration isn't a crime and illegal immigrants aren't criminals.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#333

Post by lmm »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #313
lmm wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most democratic countries don't have decades of regular law enforcement refusing to enforce democratically agreed immigration law, which is what has made this defensible.

> refusing to enforce democratically agreed immigration law the main reason why immigration law has not been enforced is because a large number of US businesses (farms, factories, etc.) depend on those illegal immigrants as their workforce if you really wanted to enforce immigration law you would shut down businesses who employ illegals -- which would also stem the tide of people coming into the US -- but that hasn't…

> if you really wanted to enforce immigration law you would shut down businesses who employ illegals

I'm all for that (although California seemingly isn't, given that they make it illegal for those businesses to use e-Verify in most cases). I don't see any contradiction between doing that and continuing regular immigration enforcement. I certainly don't see how you can argue that we should stop regular immigration enforcement until we've done this new thing.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#334

Post by lmm »

ben_w wrote: post #291
lmm wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice try. I'm an immigrant and a minority myself, not that people like you ever actually care about supporting people like me.

Great, so am I (different country though). So, what are your thoughts about ICE going after immigrants who think they're legal but didn't dot all the i's and cross all the t's on their paperwork? Because that is in the news as well.

I think that, much like those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable, those who make decent, reasonable immigration enforcement impossible make vicious immigration enforcement inevitable. No doubt the pendulum will swing too hard and too far, and ordinary decent people will pay the price. But when one side is even now still taking the position that you can't deport people who just walked across the border with no intention of ever following the legitimate process, I can't blame the other side for sending in the goon squad to crack heads.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#335

Post by [deleted] »

bigyabai wrote: post #316
Avshalom wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas station clerks get credible death threats for not selling people alcohol before noon on Sunday and manage to show a hell of a lot more spine.

Gas station clerks typically don't face off against paramilitary organizations with the intent to kidnap them if they refuse their demands.

[deleted]

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#336

Post by insane_dreamer »

lmm wrote: post #332
insane_dreamer wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> made this defensible That's like saying vigilantism is defensible. I don't care if these "officers" (in quotes as we don't know who they are) are doing God's work, if they are 1) refusing to show proof that they are indeed officers and 2) have legal warrants for an arrest, and 3) provide those they arrest with due process, then they are acting outside the law

> That's like saying vigilantism is defensible. When traditional law enforcement fails to the point that the rule of law completely breaks down, vigilantism becomes defensible. > I don't care if these "officers" (in quotes as we don't know who they are) are doing God's work, if they are 1) refusing to show proof that they are indeed officers and 2) have legal warrants for an arrest, and 3) provide those they arrest w…

> the rule of law completely breaks down

pretty hard to argue that the rule of law as completely broken down in the US

> ICE has the legal authority to arrest without warrants in many cases

yeah, you're probably right about that though I think it's more "some" cases than "many" (they can't enter your house to search for someone without a warrant); due process still holds though

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#337

Post by tstrimple »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #270
someothherguyy wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of us doesn't come here to read about US internal politics I see this a lot, and I think, "then why are you posting comments in a thread for a article discussing US internal politics?"

What other forum is there to voice your disapproval?

Ignore it and move on. Like 99.9% of the rest of the population when they encounter something online they "aren't interested" in.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#338

Post by computerthings »

speakfreely wrote: post #315
acdha wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's not unconstitutional or unlawful as far I can tell. The problem is that you can’t tell: if they follow the law, you can be fairly confident that it is constitutional but when they’re rapidly deporting people without hearings and with officers actively resisting oversight, we have only their word that the people being deported do in fact meet those criteria. Since they’ve been documented as detaining citize…

> Since they’ve been documented as detaining citizens So I've seen this claim a few times and I have personally heard of a few well publicized cases where this occurred. Given the nature of the work, I'd imagine it's almost impossible for this not to happen at some point. From Wikipedia: - Between FY 2015 and Q2 FY 2020, ICE arrested 674 individuals believed to be U.S. citizens, detained 121, and deported 70 (GAO) -…

[dead]

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#339

Post by ben_w »

lmm wrote: post #334
ben_w wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, so am I (different country though). So, what are your thoughts about ICE going after immigrants who think they're legal but didn't dot all the i's and cross all the t's on their paperwork? Because that is in the news as well.

I think that, much like those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable, those who make decent, reasonable immigration enforcement impossible make vicious immigration enforcement inevitable. No doubt the pendulum will swing too hard and too far, and ordinary decent people will pay the price. But when one side is even now still taking the position that you can't deport people who just…

> No doubt the pendulum will swing too hard and too far, and ordinary decent people will pay the price.

It has swung, and they are *already paying* the price. That's the question.

> I can't blame the other side for sending in the goon squad to crack heads.

Even when it's your own head? Given the complexity of the system, it's implausible that any immigrant, including you (or I in Germany) have done everything perfectly. But it's worse than that, as people in the USA are currently facing removal for writing things on the internet which are theoretically constitutionally protected free speech.

And that's without any discussion about why nobody in power did anything about what Biden's admin said was about 11 million undocumented migrants:

The reason being the US economy, and of main importance the food supply, actually depends on their labour — depending on how fast they get removed, the USA would be looking a 50% supply cut in perishable hand-picked crops and dairy (if done instantly) to a mere 20% price inflation (if done over a few years). Similar for construction industry, but that's less critical than, you know, eating.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#340

Post by croon »

speakfreely wrote: post #239
acdha wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument being offered is that if the police follow the law, the problem goes away and there’s no impact on legitimate law enforcement activity.

So until every police officer follows the law, everywhere, in every instance, you believe anyone should be entitled to obstruct arrests if they disagree with the law?

How would you identify an arrest by law enforcement to know whether or not you are obstructing it?
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